REVIEW: Dukes Prefer Blondes by Loretta Chase
Dear Loretta Chase:
I requested this book on a whim though I haven’t read all of the previous books in the series (I think I read the first one?). I don’t think that fact affected my enjoyment *that* much, but it’s fair to say that I wasn’t blown away by Dukes Prefer Blondes.
Lady Clara Fairfax and Oliver “Raven” Radford first meet as children, when she chips a tooth trying to protect him from his bullying cousin Bernard. They meet again years later when he briefly saves her on the streets from being run down by a carriage, and then again shortly afterward when she comes to him for help. Radford is a barrister with a reputation for fighting on behalf of lost causes. Clara is involved in a charity through which she’s gotten to know a young woman whose younger brother has fallen in with a vicious street gang. She wants Radford’s help getting him out. Radford is also notoriously irascible and quickly tells Lady Clara that she’s on the wrong side of a lost cause. At the same time, he’s taken with her almost legendary beauty, beauty marred only by the chipped tooth by which he finally recognizes her as his long-ago defender. It’s only at the end of this encounter that Raven realizes that Clara remembers him, too.
Raven at first declines to help Clara, but finds himself drawn into doing so anyway. From the first, he’s attracted not just to her stunning looks but to her mind; most people can’t keep up with Radford’s intelligence and wit, but Clara gives him a run for his money.
(He frequently comments at the unlikeliness of a mere woman doing so; it’s mostly to get Clara’s goat that he keeps saying it, but I still didn’t find it that cute. It may have been accurate to the period, but I don’t find casual sexism from heroes that much more acceptable than I would casual racism. I don’t expect or necessarily want them to spout anachronistic attitudes, but I don’t need to have their prejudices either shoved in my face or played for laughs, either.)
From there the plot is pretty much a series of slightly unlikely set-ups to ensure that Raven and Clara spend a lot more time alone together than an unmarried man and woman generally would have in their society. First they’re meeting secretly to arrange for the rescue of the boy that Clara wants to help (a lady such as Clara can’t be seen to be visiting a barrister, of all things); later she falls ill and it falls to Raven to nurse her, for reasons. (To be fair in the context of the story it made sense – sort of – but still felt like kind of an obvious deus ex machina.)
There were a number of aspects of Dukes Prefer Blondes that felt familiar, and not in a good way. Why is it that in SO many historical romances the “good” characters know about germs (even if they don’t call them that) and the inefficacy of blood-letting, whereas everyone else (including trained and respected doctors) are quacks/idiots/unethical? I’m not sure how this got to be a litmus test for virtue in romance characters, but both Raven and Clara seem to know much more than everyone around them about modern medical practices. I found this irritating, perhaps because I’ve read that scenario so often.
There’s also a lot of mental lusting in the book; I’ve developed a fair aversion to mental lusting. Raven slobbering over Clara in her nightgown when she’s seriously ill was unnecessary. I get it; she’s hot, and he’s really attracted to her. But I would expect someone as cerebral and upright as Raven to know that there’s a time and a place for everything, and that wasn’t it.
Also, while I know it’s a common characteristic in Loretta Chase romances, Clara and Raven’s verbal sparring got tiresome after a while.
To be fair, there were aspects of Dukes Prefer Blondes that did work better for me. I liked Clara’s quiet bitterness over the constraints of the life she led, and Raven’s recognition that she deserved to be seen as more than an ornament; that she should be LISTENED to and paid attention to. Raven’s complicated feelings about his cousin Bernard showed hints of his depth and gave him some nuance as a character.
I also liked that part of the conflict between Clara and Radford centered on the fact that he was a mere mister, and she was raised to marry a duke. The resolution to that was disappointingly predictable, though. Overall, the book and the characters were pretty flat for me. The fact that this review is probably about 2/3 the length of one of my normal reviews is a reflection of the fact that I just don’t have a lot to say about the story.
I have the feeling that Dukes Prefer Blondes is one of those historicals that will work better for someone who is not burned out on the genre the way that I am. It’s well-written, with sympathetic characters and a perfectly fine plot. My main objection was the presence of a number of familiar tropes, but where would romance be without tropes? Still, for me Dukes Prefer Blondes felt bland, and so my grade for it is a C+.
Best regards,
Jennie
Thank you very much for this review. I’m too burnt out on those exact tropes (uncommon medical knowledge/mental lusting in lieu of showing attraction/sickness as plot development) to give it a try. Maybe in a couple years.
I have to agree. While I usually LOVE Chase’s works, 5 minutes after I finished this one I was thinking “Wait, what was the plot?”
I haven’t read Chase since Scandal Wears Satin which just didn’t work for me. I was hoping this one would be a return to form, because I miss her voice.
I totally agree with your take on this book. I rated it a “C” myself and wondered if I had read the same book as so many others who raved about it. I think this is a good example of how people see things so differently. I tend to be out of sync with the majority when it comes to so many romance novels. Even though the book was well-written, intelligent and witty, I was bored. And I didn’t care overly much about the characters. I usually enjoy Chase but this one just did not work for me either.
If you are “burned out on the genre the way that I am” why are you reviewing a book clearly within that genre?
Simple question: If you’re burned out on historicals, why review one in the first place? Only to give it a low grade? Seems pointless and a waste of time to me.
I disagree……for me it was a wonderful read. A+
Slobbering over her when she was ill? Slobbering?
I loved it! I thought it was the best of the “dressmakers” series. When she’s on top of her game, Loretta Chase knocks it out of the park and I thought this was a solid home run!
@Jean: Jennie, the reviewer who wrote this review, gave an A- grade to Rose Lerner’s Listen to the Moon just two weeks ago, and that was a historical romance, so clearly she is capable of enjoying a historical romance despite her historical burnout.
I’m trying to understand your question. Do you honestly believe that reviewers have nothing better to do but read books they have no hope of enjoying in order to give them low grades? Would you spend your time reading a book if you didn’t think that there existed a chance, however small, that you might like it?
@Janine: I can’t speak for Jean but when a reviewer makes this comment I’m going to interpret the review in light of that. For me a review is just an opinion, so I think its good to have that information so I can interpret in view of bias which we all intrinsically have.
I dont think this review was a “waste of time”, the reviewer took the time to explain in detail what worked and didn’t work for her, and gave the added caveat of being burned out, which could very well affect not only her perception of the novel, buy the grade too. I’ve read poor reviews that have convinced me to buy books and a+ reviews that have turned me off. The common thing there was the explanation of why the grade was chosen. I just had a difference of taste from each of those reviewers. A well thought put and explained review is much more useful than a mere grade and a generic, I loved it/I hated it. Context matters.
@Bronte:
Sure. And well you should. I expect that’s why Jennie provided that information. But there’s a big difference between taking that bias into account and asking why review the book in the first place, or implying that the motive behind reading the book and writing the review was to give a low grade.
Chase is hit and miss for me: I didn’t like Lord of Scoundrels or Mr Impossible, but Lord Perfect and Last Night’s Scandal were DIKs. I know I read the first two Dressmaker books, but I can’t recall much about them, and I can’t have loved them, because I forgot to read the third.
This one, I really liked.
Mental lusting does annoy me, but it wasn’t something that I noticed as I read – I’d have said it was a better than usual romance in that regard, in that they find each other mentally stimulating.
My quibbles about the book were all round the villains – they were fixated on their victims for no very good reason except that the plot required it. And while if I’d remembered the Dressmakers the inclusion of those characters might have been fun, they didn’t always make sense without that context: I’m thinking particularly of the fistfight outside the chambers.
But I liked the hero – I said on AAR that he reminded me a bit of Moffat’s version of Sherlock – not physically – but he’s pretty obnoxious in his intelligence – and I thought they’d actually work as a couple. She needs someone who is mentally stimulating, who will respect her as a person, and he needs her emotional intelligence and social skills.
(Can’t say I’ve been aware of the blood-letting-is-bad-and-good-people-know-this scenario before, but I know I’ll recognise it each and every time from now on. Thanks. )
@Janine: I’ve given decent grades to a couple of books of hers in recent years, though in retrospect I don’t remember them at all. The last one I gave a good grade to *and* still (kind of) remember was the one set in Venice, with the courtesan heroine. That one is probably at least six years old.
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@Janine: You said, “I’m trying to understand your question. Do you honestly believe that reviewers have nothing better to do but read books they have no hope of enjoying in order to give them low grades? Would you spend your time reading a book if you didn’t think that there existed a chance, however small, that you might like it?”
Well, we’re in the same boat then, sadly, because I don’t understand your questions exactly either. I’ll try my best, however. As for the first question about reviewers’ intents, I can’t begin to guess because I myself would much prefer to spend my time reading a different book than telling others why I didn’t like some book I had read, particularly one that I had only a small chance of enjoying–that is, if I get you right. Even if the intention may be to try to be a service to other readers, a statement like, “burned out on the genre” colors the entire review, IMO. It just doesn’t seem at all a wise choice of time and effort to me–either the reading in the first place or the followup review which was colored by that statement of being burned out on a genre.
As for your second question, there are just so many books out there to read, so, no, I would not bother with a book where the likelihood of enjoyment seemed small. I’d choose one that I knew I had a much better chance of enjoying. That just seems an obvious reader’s choice to me. Again, that’s what I meant by a waste of time, and the reviewer’s reaction to this book proved that point to me.
To be clear, I do not know any reviewer’s intent and I would not question nor judge that. That is _not_ the point at all. I would question a reviewer’s choice of time and effort, however, particularly when the reviewer’s states her own expectations were “small” to begin with. That seems like common sense to me.
Time for a letter of opinion about Readers expectations of Abook review, and the intent of a reviewer when giving a book a negative grade.
I really like reviews like this one with someone who is a little jaded on the genre. I feel that many of the authors I like, Chase being one of them, write too fast and sometimes put out mediocre books. I like to have that identified, rather than having the book read by someone who likes everything. And since Chase is often listed as a great author or a reader favorite, if you read one of the mediocre ones without it being identified as such, you’d miss the great ones.
Nothing wrong with a discerning analysis and difficult taste. I as well tend to have high expectations of books. It would be nonsensical, and probably impossible, to review only what one likes. Reviews aren’t paid for author laudations, after all. They are meant to help readers decide whether or not they might be interested in a particular book. Negative reviews go with that goal.
I’d like to think that those who read on a regular basis can find books to read _all on their own_ without some other individual they don’t know telling them what is or isn’t a good book. Beside every individual has her own tastes.
As for the comment about liking a _jaded_ view? Please, isn’t there more than enough of that stuff already all over social media? Who needs more negativity–and for fun?–in their world?
Given that even bad, even downright dire reviews of DA sell books galore, I think that what the reviewers here might take away from your barely hidden fangirling defence of Loretta Chase is to not review her at all in the future.
That would certainly benefit her a mile and some, don’t you think?
@Drano, I’m not sure what you know about publishing but _dire reviews_ as you say, don’t sell books. In fact, publishers and editors read reviews and that can have an effect on an author’s ability to publish again. Putting an author out of the work they love because one is tired of a particular genre doesn’t seem a goal to shoot for, as I see it anyway.
Thank you for the personal attack which is always an indicator all on its own. To be clear, again, my original point, as several others mentioned or alluded to was the line, “burned out on the genre the way that I am” and why someone would read such a book in the first place, and the coloring that line gives the review itself.
Obviously I know more about publishing, and advertising than you:
https://hbr.org/2012/03/bad-reviews-can-boost-sales-heres-why
http://www.teleread.com/amazon/chuck-wendig-one-star-reviews-sell-more-books/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2606192/How-leaving-NEGATIVE-online-reviews-boosts-sales-Honest-feedback-makes-shoppers-likely-buy-products.html
http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/89309-Customer-Reviews-Can-Sell-Your-Products
I could keep going, but that should be enough. That you are unaware of this, and that you take my remarks as an attack instead of me mildly ironically pointing out the harm you are doing to the author you fangirl after, proves that you are precisely that.
And it is this which will harm Mrs Chase most, because readers these days really hate authors and their fans going after reviewers. Indeed, Jean, you may be causing Mrs Chase more harm than Jennie’s review (which was just lukewarm instead of truly bad). Do yourself a favour and google “badly behaving authors” and you’ll stop from harassing reviewers pretty fast. That is, if you truly want only the best for your beloved author.
@Drano, BTW, may I ask if you work for or are some part of DA? Your instructive comment about “Reviews aren’t paid for author laudations, after all” and also the ominous “…not review her [Chase] at all in the future. That would certainly benefit her a mile and some, don’t you think?” makes me wonder.
@Jean – now I’m curious – why do you read book reviews?
I read on a regular basis and I read reviews because they are (or can be) entertaining or thought provoking and because I enjoy participating in online communities like DA, but I primarily read them to discover new books and new authors. I’ve discovered a lot of books on my own or through recommendations from friends, but some of my favorite reads of the last year were by authors I discovered through reviews and I’m glad I found them. I feel that my reading life is richer since I’ve started reading more reviews. I personally really appreciate a reviewer giving me insight into their reactions, so I can gauge whether or not I might have a similar or different reaction and if I want to try the book. It sounds like you read reviews for a different reason.
I actually enjoy reading negative reviews of books I like. It’s a fun experience if you’re open to others having different opinions from yours. I liked JAL’s The Legend of Lyon Redmond, despite which I really enjoyed reading the critical discussion on it here on DA, often cringing and thinking, “Wow, how did I miss that?” I also remember loving Ilona Andrews’ Steels Edge, and shaking my head through most of the C review here, while marveling at how different two opinions on the same book can be. It shouldn’t matter whether the reviewer likes that particular genre or not, the review is their take on the book, and if well-written, oughtn’t to offend those who disagree.
No, I’m most assuredly not a reviewer for DA. I’m just a reader of romances. The suggestion that I work for DA or am linked to them is… a bit… curious?
The spamguard seems to have eaten my earlier reply. As my mildly ironic replies seem to go entirely over your top, I had best spell it out for you, and do it bluntly, right? You do Mrs. Chase a disservice with your posts, and on two different counts.
It is you who seems to not know much about publishing and advertisements. Let’s hope just one link passes the spamguard:
hbr.org/2012/03/bad-reviews-can-boost-sales-heres-why
There’s more such information out there, if you cared to look for it. Fact is: a single mention on DA – regardless of actual rating and review – boosts a book way up in sales on Amazon. So, rather than a slam and negative result for Mrs. Chase, this review is a positive thing for her. If DA did as you asked them, and ceased to review her, her sales would amount to much less than they are. It is as simple as that. No need for any tinfoil hat theories on your side.
The other thing is that readers, especially reviewing readers, hate to be accosted and harassed by rabid authors or rabid fans of authors. Such as you have set yourself up with the past few posts. You again are doing Mrs. Chase a disservice by behaving the way you do. Fewer people will be willing to honestly state their impression of her books, or even state anything at all. Maybe even cease to read an author whose fans tell reviewers they ought not to review her. That makes for very strained relations.
@Jo Savage:
I as well like to read negative reviews. Very often they contain things I love to read in a book, and I will buy it for that.
@Drano: Yes, the spamguard caught it but unfortunately sent it to Trash. Thanks for the heads-up, I fished it out.
*gets popcorn*
@Jean: “I’d like to think that those who read on a regular basis can find books to read _all on their own_ without some other individual they don’t know telling them what is or isn’t a good book.”
I resent statements like this. I choose the books that I read almost exclusively through reviews, focusing on the content of the review not on the grade. That’s my process for choosing books. I’m not adventurous; I like to know what I’m getting into, and I can make up my own mind about reviewers’ opinions and intentions. I don’t like it when people tell me how I should choose what I read as if picking a book cold off the shelf is how real readers do it. It’s my choice to use reviews as tools for choosing books. There are a zillion books out there, and I choose to gather information about books to heighten the chance that I’ll choose a book that I like.
I think I understand the reviewer’s burned out comment. I read romance almost exclusively, and I’ve felt like that lately. I go through periods of crankiness when every book seems the same and nothing sounds like what I want to read. What’s important in a reviewer is that they say what bothered them and why so readers can decide if that’s an aspect that matters to them.
As an aside, I’ve never gotten the appeal of Lord of Scoundrels. My favorite is Captives of the Night. I haven’t read the more recent books. I’ve developed concentration issues, and my reading has been seriously slumped for a while. I tend to choose shorter contemporaries because they seem easier to read. :(
@Jean
What I meant by a “jaded view” was someone who will point out the flaws of a book. Yes, I can find books to read all on my own, but it’s a hell of a lot easier if someone can point me towards some good ones and away from the clunkers. Without DA, I probably would have given up on Romance, because so much of the new authors or books I’ve tried I didn’t like.
But I do enjoy reading a really good rant about how awful a book is. Even meh reviews sometimes spark conversations about cliches and tropes and I really hope editors and publishers read them and steer authors away from the stuff that is just old, boring, or so entirely unoriginal.
@Jean: I guess we have a fundamental disagreement. For me, when it comes to reading, hope springs eternal.
That’s because even with some of my favorite authors, their books can be hit or miss. For years, Laura Kinsale was my favorite romance author bar none. Then she wrote her last three books, none of which were favorites. With the last one, I couldn’t finish it. But would I read her again if she wrote another? You bet! I think she has a lot of talent and I won’t boycott her books on the basis of the fact that she has gone downhill for me. She was my favorite author at one time.
Similarly, last year I had some frustrations with the newer crop of European historical romances, but this year I’ve already read one that I liked. If I had decided not to read any historical romances again, ever, I would have missed out on it. If Jennie had done the same, she would have missed out on Rose Lerner’s Listen to the Moon, which she gave an A- grade to just two weeks ago!
I find your question hard to comprehend because I don’t think there are any books we are guaranteed to like. When we pick up a book, we don’t know its contents, only the genre, author, cover and back blurb. If we’ve read reviews we many know more than that, but not much. How can we know whether we will like or dislike the contents? A genre preference doesn’t necessarily tell us that.
For years, contemporaries were my least favorite genre of romance, but last year I started reading more of them. My favorite book of 2015 was a contemporary romance, Sonya Clark’s Good Time Bad Boy. If I had said “I don’t care that much for contemporary romance; I guess I shouldn’t read that,” I would have missed out on a terrific book.
And you know what else? I didn’t see readers here telling me that I shouldn’t have tried that book because I wasn’t likely to enjoy it. Somehow that only happens when a book gets a lower grade.
Because I know Jennie, I happen to know that historical romance was for many years her favorite genre to read. To expect a reader to boycott a genre she once loved completely just because she’s experienced some burnout with it is absurd, in my opinion.
@Drano: Thank you for the links about publicity. Just curious, did you by chance read the first one from hbr.org yourself which in part says:
“Good reviews, as expected, increased sales across the board, with gains from 32% to 52%. For books by established authors, negative reviews caused a drop of about 15%, on average—also not surprising. But for books by relatively unknown authors, bad reviews caused sales to rise, by an average of 45%. …. we found that negative reviews hurt well-known authors regardless of any delay between the review and the purchase decision.”
As for the other links, they were general info about all kinds of products, not necessarily books or the book market.
Next: I never once said for the reviewer not to review a Chase book. Not once. That was you saying that. I will repeat yet AGAIN that I asked why a reviewer would choose to read a book she only had a small chance of liking in the first place when there are so many other books to choose from. Do you not recognize a philosophical or pragmatic question when you read it? My question now for you is why you are so rabid about my asking that question. Reviewers can question things but readers can’t? Not logical.
For the record, I am not an author. I do however work in publishing, though not in any way with either Chase or with her publisher, so I do indeed know how publishers and editors work, as well as book advertising.
Finally, while you seem so focused on Chase, Amazon, advertising, et al, what I take away from all this hooplah is that neither Dear Author nor posters like you are now to my taste, so I’ll make you blissfully happy by deleting the DA bookmark. You’ll have to find someone else to vent your spleen on.
@LML: I had the same question. I don’t expect reviewers to be unbiased, but I always hope that they are able to set some of that aside and provide somewhat neutral reviews. I read this review as one written by a reviewer burnt out on the genre, and so I take it was not that helpful to me.
@Janine: I think what I take away is that sourness on a genre renders reviews a bit *too* biased for me – any review and not just this one. I really like Chase and I did like this particular book, but I’m not a fangirl and enjoy negative reviews as much as positive ones if they are well-written. However, having a reviewer conclude that she is burnt out on the genre itself puts the entire review in a bit of a problematic light because now the review is about her than the actual book itself.
@Sharon: I don’t have any issue with that — it’s your prerogative to decide whether or not a review is useful to you. What bothered me was Jean’s implication that Jennie’s motive in choosing to read and review the book was to assign it a “bad grade.”
BTW, C+ is not such a bad grade, being slightly above “Not bad, but I’ll probably never read it again,” our explanation of the C grade in our Review Grade Explanation that’s posted somewhere on this site. A B on the other hand is “It’s good and I would buy it again, given a chance.”
As recently as the past year, Jennie gave Loretta Chase’s Royally Ever After a B grade. So I don’t think it was an unreasonable assumption for her to think that she might enjoy this book, as well.
I understand your feeling that the reviewer’s bias means the review isn’t helpful to you, personally. But others here have said that the review was helpful to them. Is Jennie now supposed to stop reading historical romance for the rest of her life because she’s burned out on the genre? That’s what I don’t understand.
@Jean: “I will repeat yet AGAIN that I asked why a reviewer would choose to read a book she only had a small chance of liking in the first place when there are so many other books to choose from. Do you not recognize a philosophical or pragmatic question when you read it? My question now for you is why you are so rabid about my asking that question. ”
If your question was why a reviewer would choose to read a book she only had a small chance of liking in the first place, you had your answer in the first paragraph. She chose it on a whim. Your actual question was “If you’re burned out on historicals, why review one in the first place? Only to give it a low grade? Seems pointless and a waste of time to me.” Not a pragmatic question. A judgmental question insinuating that the reviewer’s true goal was to find a book she could give a low grade. The rabid response is due to you questioning the reviewer’s motives.
I liked this one, which was a relief to me as I haven’t liked any others in the dressmakers series. Chase is one romance author along with Lisa Kleypas who have back lists of books I like to re-read. They are comfort reads to me.
@Drano: “I’m just a reader of romances”
Such unusual reticence and modesty from you, Drano. Especially when coupled with this comment “Obviously I know more about publishing, and advertising than you”. Strange that ‘just a reader’ is so interested with book sales and the effects of reviews there on. It’s a topic much closer to the heart of authors trying to make a buck, but one assumes you would of course disclose that kind of interest while taking a reader to task over a book review.
Neutral reviews are just plot summaries. I don’t find those useful unless I’m looking for a plot summary.
It’s impossible to read a book without making judgments because the text gets filtered through our brains which are unique combinations of ideas and beliefs. Readers judge books based on whether the cover illustration matches the story or whether the ending is satisfying or realistic or whatever they feel strongly about on a particular day. You’d have to be a robot to review a book without preferences or emotions and then you’d be back to a plot summary.
The reviews I find useful are ones where the reviewer shares enough about their preferences for me to know how they match up with my own.
Wow, what happened here? Did people get an alert that an author they like received a less-than-stellar review? I mean, I really like Loretta Chase (I’ve enjoyed the Dressmakers series to greater and lesser amounts) but if someone has a different opinion on that, it’s cool with me. C reviews have to be the hardest to write, because you have to articulate exactly what didn’t work for you as well as what DID — As and Fs are pretty easy in comparison.
I mean, if I had never been to a review site before and saw them trashing a favourite author, I’d probably feel a pang because I Like This Thing/Person, but honestly, what someone likes or dislikes in no way casts a value judgement on you. More importantly, there’s absolutely nothing in the review that is trashing or uncomplimentary towards the author or the book, and I appreciate the notes on overused tropes (because YES leeches vs sterilization, I’ve seen ONE book where it made sense and I can’t recall which it was but it was a Grace Burrowes most likely) because they’re worth examining, and that’s a thing that is done here. It’s one of the reasons why I read DA!
Quite frankly, this review only convinced me it contained my catnip and that I wanted to give it a try, caveats in mind. Because I like the same things some people can’t stand, and can’t stand some things people adore, and that’s OKAY.
Saying that a single, well-articulated review, even on a well-trafficked site (and I have no idea where DA ranks in that) is harming the author and driving them out of business is not just a straw man, it’s extremely unfair to the reviewer because it’s assuming they have the ability to affect an author’s livelihood with a single review, and that kind of power really doesn’t exist.
There are sites where they only post positive reviews. You can just read the 5-star reviews on Amazon. That’s not what you’ll find here, and if that’s not your cup of tea, that’s totally cool. But objecting to people posting content here because you personally dislike or disagree with it, that’s pretty harsh. Obviously people find a lot of value in these reviews (I sure do!), and just because you don’t doesn’t mean that it has no value period.
TL;DR:
“I DON’T LIKE THING”
“Okay.”
“Okay.”
The End.
@MaryK:
You nailed the attitude: “If you can’t give her a nice review, don’t give her any review.” It’s such a passive-aggressive ploy.
@Jean: I read all these links, and I read even more information on that topic. It is interesting psychology.
@Ann Somerville: The assertion that there’s no such thing as bad publicity isn’t something of which only authors like you are aware, I’d say.
@Drano:
“The assertion that there’s no such thing as bad publicity isn’t something of which only authors like you are aware, I’d say.”
Did I say otherwise?
Let me say, however, that it’s reassuring, given the bitter weather in the northern hemisphere, that we can rest easy in the knowledge that your sock supply is more than adequate for the circumstances.
@ducky: Thanks, I might try the book based on your opinion and that of Marianne McA.
I think that some of the comments re. genre burnout ignore the fact that very thing that causes the burnout can often be its cure. (General) you read books with tropes, characters, and plot lines you hope you enjoy, from authors whose voices you have enjoyed or hope to enjoy, and after a while the sameness can burn you out. Until you stumble on that one book that takes you to a new place, that breaks through all that sameness and makes you excited again about the genre and all those tropes and characters and plots you’ve loved. And who knows when that’s going to be, and what book is going to open those doors?
Which may be why, for so many serious readers that I know, the way they try get over burnout is to read through it. And when the genre itself is causing the burnout, I think it’s more than fair to review each and every book along the way. I certainly want to know which books are pushing the envelope for other readers and which books are trudging over the same ground, because that gives me valuable information to factor in to my own reading preferences of the moment, especially for reviewers whose tastes tend to align with mine.
@Janet/Robin
Exactly!
What Cleo said.
I have long had misgivings about the giving of letter grades in reviews, and this one, I think, confirms my sense that they are a bad idea. The award of stars also has some problems, as when somebody gives one or two stars to a recognized classic, but stars are at least a longstanding feature of reviews. Grades, on the other hand, are given by teachers to their pupils. Authors are not the pupils of reviewers, and giving a review that includes (or prominently features) a letter grade strikes me as inappropriately condescending. Add to that a reviewer who admittedly is burnt out on the whole subgenre, and you end up with something that by its own admission cant be very helpful to readers who aren’t similarly burned out, and that is bound to irritate people who, like me, are fans of the author in question.
I have been reading reviews on this site for several years, and they have become less and less appealing and useful to me. Partly I think that is just a change in the formatting, which I find uncongenial. But having reviewers who are, by their own admission, “burned out” in relation to the books they are reviewing write reviews and assign letter grades to works by professional authors doesn’t help.
@etv13: I keep a log of books I read with brief thoughts about each book and a letter grade. There is nothing condescending or inappropriate about assigning books grades or ratings, regardless of format. For Jennie, this book is a C+. For another reviewer or reader, it will be a different grade.
I reviewed for DA for over a year. My goal was to communicate my take on a book, its strengths and weaknesses, and to explain why certain things did or didn’t work for me. I’m pretty sure that this is what other reviewers try to do, too. The goal is not to cater to fans of any specific author, to be congenial or to help improve someone’s sales. If you’ve been reading DA for years, I don’t see how this is a surprise to you.
More generally: I don’t know if there was some sort of discussion elsewhere that has led a lot of infrequent readers and commenters to this specific DA review, but I find some of the comments odd. Jennie noting that she is burned out on historicals does not mean she should not try to find ones that *will* work for her, or that she shouldn’t review those that end up being disappointing her. The experience of trying to overcome this sort of burnout is one many readers share, and it is no more and no less valid than the perspective of a fan. I’m personally on the fence about this particular book, because the issues that bothered Jennie do not loom as large for me, and I’ve seen some more positive reviews that do make me curious. But I find the dissenting view offered by Jennie here helpful and well-articulated, and I think readers only gain from having a greater variety of perspectives. Nobody would take DA seriously if it were only about providing positive reinforcement for authors and their fans (now *that*) would be condescending.
Finally, regarding the impact of negative reviews: I’ve read the Berger et al. article that’s been discussed in this thread. It is true that they found a positive effect for negative reviews only for lesser-known authors, due to increased awareness. The research mentioned in the Daily Mail sounds like a 2014 article by Hamilton, Vohs and McGill on dispreferred markers (the full article is available online). They examined how using expressions such as “I’ll be honest with out”, or “I don’t want to be mean” can improve perceptions of the reviewers, which in turn may spill over to how the product is perceived; there were five studies, but only one looked at the latter question, and they used mixed reviews rather than negative ones. Of course, I would argue that this review is itself mixed and not negative as some have suggested.
It is also worth keeping in mind that negative reviews or specific criticisms aren’t similarly negative for all readers, and that things that bother the reviewer may be the very ones that persuade some readers that a book will work for them.
@etv13: I agree with all of your very well made points and how well you said them. I too have noticed the decline in the appeal and usefulness of reviews on this site.
@Rose: About your comment about infrequent commenters, I would think one would know how many lurkers there are in social media who emerge when something really hits home with them. etv13’s comment is the one that brings me out because I’ve been feeling the same as her although I’ve lurked here for years.
@Janine:
“I’m trying to understand your question. Do you honestly believe that reviewers have nothing better to do but read books they have no hope of enjoying in order to give them low grades?”
This sounds mean and nasty, HOWEVER, Every Single Time I give book a bad review, I seem to get an identical response: “You obviously hate the genre. Why bother?” And I become furious with the person who made the comment.
I became seriously burnt out on historical romance last year, but I persisted, because I knew – deep down – that I loved it. The idea you’re not allowed to review a book if you’re feeling a bit jaded about the genre is… infuriating…
@Anon:
“Time for a letter of opinion about Readers expectations of Abook review, and the intent of a reviewer when giving a book a negative grade.”
Absolutely. And the conclusion of that post should be: people can read whatever the bloody hell they want. :)
I actually appreciate critical reviews more (usually). It shows someone knows what they’re talking about. If I LOVE a book, I deliberately stay away from reviews. It’s not compulsory to read them…
@Rose:
“Finally, regarding the impact of negative reviews: I’ve read the Berger et al. article that’s been discussed in this thread. It is true that they found a positive effect for negative reviews only for lesser-known authors, due to increased awareness. ”
I’ve seen it in action, even with DA reviews. It’s not as if a DA review worked its charm on its own. There are always the reviews on Amazon, LibraryThing or Goodreads which counterbalance the blogger reviews. So it is not as if a single review would be perceived as a stand-alone, the way it maybe was a couple of decades ago with a review in one of the major newspapers.
Ignore typos. It’s nearly 1am!
If someone is burned out on a genre that may color their review and it is fair game to be commented on. Everyone has a right to read and review any book they want. But once a review is posted on a review site with open comments people will comment. Trying to attack their views or dismiss them as fangirls or rabid fans is what is infuriating to me. I am a long time lurker and rarely post.
I’m still laughing (with frustration) over the idea that a C+ is a “bad grade.” It’s actually an above average grade, reflecting the mixture of strengths and weaknesses the review articulated.
@Rose: ” I don’t know if there was some sort of discussion elsewhere that has led a lot of infrequent readers and commenters to this specific DA review, …”
Like here, maybe?: http://www.likesbooks.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=12450&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
@Janet/Robin. No not aware of that thread, don’t usually read that site. Will go back to lurker mode.
@ Janet/Robin – I saw that thread, and was amused to see one of my old reviews referenced in it.
@Drano: I’m not sure what your point is, actually – that you have anecdotal experience that contradicts Berger et al.’s findings, so they’re wrong – or that there is recent sales data/research results that suggests a broader phenomenon than they reported? Or do you mean that there’s a mix of reviews out there, and readers combine different perspectives when making a decision? Some readers do that; others have a handful of preferred sources, or none at all.
You’re right that negative reviews can have a positive impact, but the research described in the links that you posted does not indicate that this is as universal or broad a phenomenon as you suggest.
Anyway, as I wrote earlier – all that is rather irrelevant in this case, because Jennie didn’t write a negative review. She wrote a mixed review. And regardless of what kind of review it was, the purpose of DA is not to boost a specific author’s sales or make her fans happy. This review did exactly what it needed to do: explain what the reviewer thought about the book, and leave readers to decide how relevant it was to them.
@janet/Robin: Now blaming another site for comments made based here on a review on DA? Oh dear. Yet another sign in DA’s decline.
@Rose:
In the main I agreed with you, and added that these days – which has been recently enough researched – mere mention on social media indeed is good news for sales, as well as that my perception is that relatively few people are so unconnected that they don’t use (most of) them when seeking to form an opinion.
1) Jennie would comment but her browser is not allowing her to. Some kind of captcha thing is preventing it.
2) Drano is not part of the DA review team, but not because we wouldn’t have her. I’d also note that if she was, she’d know that there is one person in this thread using multiple names to defend a certain position. That’s called sock puppeting and if the person does it again, the comments will be deleted and the poster will be banned. Pick an anonymous name and stick with it. Don’t pretend to be multiple people because you don’t feel like you’re getting enough support.
@Drano: But you’re not talking about social media mentions in general, you’re referring specifically to negativity. Where has it been empirically demonstrated that negative reviews or mentions are good for sales? Research either shows a negative effect – whether focused on traditional reviews, online reviews, or social media – or, if it shows a positive effect, this tends to be more limited in scope (i.e., Berger et al.). As for what sources of information people use to form opinions regarding books (or anything else), that’s a discussion in itself. Not everyone consults multiple sources, and even if they do, they may prefer information from people in their own social circle, or a small number of trusted sources.
In other words, I think we’re in agreement that this review is perfectly fine. I just don’t agree with the suggestion that negative reviews should be embraced because they necessarily increase sales. In many cases, they don’t. And even if they did, it’s not the point of DA – so for fans to criticize Jennie/DA for possibly hurting Chase’s sales is ridiculous.
@Rose:
“But you’re not talking about social media mentions in general, you’re referring specifically to negativity.”
No, I wasn’t. At least not the way you appear to have taken what I said. Which really is that any kind of review (or acknowledgement) these days will have a positive outcome for the person so mentioned. Well, as long as that person is selling something and hasn’t been discredited by whatever causes the mention.
Yes, of course I agree with you that this review isn’t discrediting Mrs. Chase, it isn’t even half bad, so to speak. It was Jean who claimed that this review is so negative that the sales would be negatively hit. I simply googled for “negative reviews sell books” and posted the first couple of links. I wasn’t particularly discerning about those links, because any proved what I was talking about, and that is that this here review wouldn’t be detrimental to Mrs. Chase’s sales, on the contrary.
I’ve read a couple of recent papers which show that just about any mention by a third party which pushes a name into the awareness of social media users, together with a product, will result in better sales than someone who doesn’t get mentioned. I compared “any mention” to “no mention”, and not “a positive review” with “a negative review”, or at least not foremostly. I’m sorry not to have made that more clear.
Re, Book reviews and authors
Christin lamb posted this article onto her blog detailing why she thinks reviews are important to authors. https://warriorwriters.wordpress.com/2016/01/04/consumer-power-author-responsibility-why-book-reviews-matter/
I don’t agree with everything she says, but it is an interesting article on the comment section is informative.
@Drano: I don’t think that contradicts my reading, because if any mention is good, then that includes negative mentions and reviews. But the research just doesn’t support that. The finding that not all word of mouth/mentions/reviews lead to positive effects has been demonstrated for a variety of products and services, and for various types of messages and media. Pushing something into awareness is equivalent to what the Berger et al. paper examined: it’s helpful when the subject of the review is lesser known, not across the board. Research on mixed reviews would have been more relevant in this case; maybe Jean should read it, and see how she feels about the implications ;)
@Rose: And some people just have distinctive online voices.
@Anon: Thank you for linking to that. I found it really problematic, though. First she doesn’t really acknowledge that used bookstores are part of the free market, too, and need to be paid for THEIR work/merchandise in order to stay in business. Also, authors may see used books as samples, but I don’t think most readers do, nor should they. I’ll bet even fewer used booksellers view them that way (I have a lot of issues with her whole ‘this is how capitalism works’ argument).
Also, even though she claims that readers don’t owe authors anything, there are some troubling phrases in that section. Like ‘only give an author the review they earn’ — who makes that call? And ‘authors don’t know X about their book unless readers/reviewers tell them’ – I HATE the idea that reviews are perceived as editorial feedback – that’s NOT a reader’s job, it not the function of reviews, and for most of us, authors are not the audience for whom we’re reviewing. And the ‘we need reviews to stay relevant,’ implies a responsibility on the part of readers, even if it’s not stated directly.
I think that there are just places where an author and reader’s perceived interests are not in alignment. And she may be completely sincere in wanting readers to write honest reviews. I especially appreciate the admonition against paying for reviews. But if readers feel pressure to write reviews so as to keep authors relevant, or to help them “improve,” that can lead to bad places (although probably not to selling drugs for the cartel – sheesh!). Ideally, I don’t want to think of the writer at all when I’m writing a review, and I prefer to read other reviews that appear to come from the same mindset, because then I know it’s about the *book* and not the person creating it (unless that wall between author and reader is obviously broken somehow, which can even happen in a book – like when Kristen Ashley created a character named “Kristen Ashley” as the author of her books – ugh).
@etv13:
But in fact other readers here have said this review was helpful to them:
Tinabelle:
YotaArmai:
SAO:
Drano:
Jo Savage:
Not all these readers sound “similarly burned out.” Tinabelle said she tends to be out of step with the majority when it comes to romance novels. YoraArmai liked that the reviewer explained in detail what worked and didn’t work for her. Jo Savage stated that she enjoys negative reviews of books she likes!
But even if they all were “similarly burned out,” that would only argue that there are enough “similarly burned out” readers out there for a review such as this to be helpful to many. In my reading circles people periodically talk about reading slumps and genre burnouts. These are not uncommon phenomenons at all. Why should reviews always cater only to those readers who don’t experience them, and not to those who do?
Oh, yay! It seems like I can post again. I have a lot to respond to; all forgive me for multiple posts coming up.
Edit: Damn, I may have spoken too soon – I can’t seem to paste in my original reply to LML that I saved from way back on Friday. Let me try again….
@LML: Well, I’m still reading in the genre, though not as much as I used to. Generally, if I read a recently published romance, I’ll review it, unless someone else at DA has already done so.
@Jean: See my reply to LML above. I try to be clear about my issues with historical romance and I think I’ve mentioned in reviews more than once that the things that bugged me (especially overused tropes) may not bug other readers who are at a different place with historical romance.
@Janet: I found it interesting that she spent a long post explaining why reviews are so important but then (in the comments) states that though she reads prolifically, she rarely posts reviews because she’s “picky.”
@mel burns: Yes, slobbering. One example:
“Nothing concealed one fact, either: Her undergarments had not created her figure. All they’d done was support it.”
This, when she is gravely, gravely ill with typhus. Not appropriate.
@Jean: Just to be clear about my time and energy wasted reading/reviewing a book: I don’t necessarily know that I’m going to have a small chance of liking a romance (or any book) when I start it. I sometimes buy books on impulse and then decide that I’m not that interested in them, but those are the ones that sit on my Kindle for years. Because I’m pretty anal about finishing a book if I start it (I don’t always, always do so, but most of the time – at least 95% of the time or more) I don’t usually actually start a book that I don’t at least have *some* hopes for.
And, as I stated before, if I read it, I’m going to review it if it’s appropriate for a DA review. Since I read outside romance, a lot of books I read probably aren’t worth it/appropriate to take the time writing a review of. But a fairly new book by a big name in romance? Of course I’m going to review it. If I’d hated it, I would have reviewed it, and if I loved it, I would have reviewed it. As it turned out, I was kind of “eh” on it, which is why it got the grade it got.
Me talking about my historical malaise is actually intended to be helpful and honest – I’m always aware that some people are not going to be bothered by the things that bothered me. The tropes, the mental lusting, even the verbal sparring – all are things I am either burnt out on or never was much a fan of in the first place. Other things, like Raven’s ironic (?) sexism or the ogling of Clara’s body when she’s out of her head with fever – those are things I’d criticize even if the book had absorbed me quite a bit more than it did.
@Jean: Just to be clear, I’m rarely “negative for fun” in my reviews – a book has to be a LOT worse than this for me to be genuinely snarky. When I am, I sometimes feel a little bad about it, but I reserve it for books that I think are so bad that it would be difficult for me to say what I have to say in a “nice” way.
@Jean: Gosh, I think it’s way overstating things to suggest that I (with my C+ review!) have this awesome power over Loretta Chase’s career. She’s one of the longtime stars of historical romance, and I don’t think anything I say will effect that negatively (nor would I want it to).
@Jo Savage: Now, our group discussion on The Legend of Lyon Redmond – THAT was negative! And I like JAL as an author and would read her again, but that was a book that I thought was genuinely a flawed ending to a long series, and I don’t have a problem saying that.
@MaryK: OMG, I think we’re twins, because back in the day, when I read Lord of Scoundrels and Captives of the Night, I preferred the latter. (This was a LOOONG time ago. I’m old.) To be fair, I think LoS suffered from the huge buildup that almost everyone I knew gave it – I was expecting it to clean my tub and bake me a layer cake while I read. Also, in retrospect, it was a bickering h/h book, and while their banter was clever, I’m reminded that I have a limited tolerance for/interest in bantering and bickering h/hs.
@Janine: “Is Jennie now supposed to stop reading historical romance for the rest of her life because she’s burned out on the genre? That’s what I don’t understand.”
It’s Jennie’s personal decision what to read in her own leisure time. I may not put much future weight however into any future reviews of historical romances should she choose to write them given that she’s stated she is biased against them. Maybe having a slightly less biased reviewer would work better here at Dear Author site for that particular subgenre.
@Jayne: That comment was particularly confounding, because she also notes that, as a writer, she sees things in books that “regular readers” don’t. And yet it’s our job to help writers improve by pointing out things they don’t see. I don’t think she intended the insinuation that “regular readers” don’t understand that books are constructed things and can’t see the scaffolding, but posts like that may foment the perception that an “author’s perspective” is mutually exclusive from a “reader’s perspective.” And now that I think about it, if this is all about being paid for one’s work, shouldn’t all readers who write reviews be paid for their(our) work, too, especially since it’s so very important to the careers of authors?
@Sharon: You keep using the word “biased.” In fact, in an 80+ comment thread, you are the only person who has used the word.
I don’t think it means what you think it means.
@Jean: I think it’s overstating it to say that I had a “small chance” of liking the book in the first place. In my mind, my burnout means that fewer historical romances are A range for me, and books that would have been As before (at least A-s) might be B range now, and so forth. So maybe, if I’d read DPB 10 years ago, it’d have gotten a straight B from me. I don’t know. Maybe not; again, I’ve never been big on the mental lusting and bickering/bantering.
Another way of looking at it, though, is that if the book had just been slightly different as written in 2015, I might have liked it better – it might have been a B or so. Who knows? Sadly, Loretta Chase does not write books solely for my pleasure and enjoyment, or consult me on minute details that may affect my opinion of her books. I don’t don’t that the very things that don’t work for me work for other readers.
I don’t write negative reviews with the intention of convincing anyone not to buy the book. I’m just putting my opinion out there, and hopefully framing it in a way that makes my issues with the book clear.
What I don’t get about your problem with my burnout comment is that I think my review would come off MORE negative, and less honest, if I simply stated my issues with the book and didn’t mention the burnout. So how is it a bad thing that I mentioned it?
@Sharon: Jennie doesn’t get paid for her contributions to this site, so any reviewing she does is part of her leisure time. Given that, I think it should be her personal decision what to review, as well as what to read. Do you disagree with that?
As I’ve said before, it’s your prerogative to put as much or as little weight as you want to in her reviews, past, present or future. When her slump ends, you can continue to put little weight in her reviews, if you feel that’s appropriate. For another reader, her slump may actually be helpful. For example when she gave Listen to the Moon an A- the other day, I was impressed that a book had garnered that kind of excitement from her even in the midst of her historical burnout, and I rushed to buy the book.
Jennie has been disclosing her “historical malaise” in her historical reviews for a while now, precisely so that you and I would be able to make these kinds of purchase decisions. Not all reviewers disclose their dispositions toward genres, so I think this is actually a *good* thing. I find it befuddling that people have jumped on her for it, when, for all we know, half the reviewers in Romancelandia could be experiencing similar issues without mentioning them in their reviews.
TBH, I can only put down this reaction to Loretta Chase fandom. Had a newbie author gotten this exact same C+ review, would that author’s readers have responded in such way, even if they liked the book? I doubt it.
We all review whatever we read for fun. Jennie read this book because she thought she might enjoy it. No one assigned it to her because we don’t assign reviews here at DA. The upside of this policy is that there are multiple reviewers here who review historical romance. Anyone who writes reviews (anywhere, not just here) is biased. That’s part of the human condition. So it’s just a matter of whether their biases match your own. It sounds like Jennie’s don’t, but maybe another reviewer’s biases will.
@Sharon: I think others have already said it, but a “neutral” review sounds just like a plot summary to me.
Of course I have biases; I’m a human being, not a review-producing automaton. I still read historical romance, so I still review historical romance. I often note, in the interests of full disclosure, that I’m burned out on a lot of aspects of historical romance. This review is not the first time I’ve stated this.
It’s not just in historical romance that I try to put my opinions in some context. Last year I read and reviewed a new adult steampunk novel, and I tried to be clear about the fact that steampunk was a genre I had read very, very little in. So I said that some of the things that bugged me in the book might not bug regular steampunk fans, because I honestly had no idea if they were common to the genre or not (and FWIW, it wasn’t a *bad* book – I gave it a B-). As for why I read it since I wasn’t already a fan of the genre, I’d gotten it through Amazon Prime’s program where you get a free book every month. (This is neither here nor there, but I have not had much luck with the books I’ve gotten through that program; the steampunk NA was probably the best of the lot.)
@Jennie: I remember when I first started reading Romance. The friend who got me reading the genre would recommend books, and when I finished them, I would call her excitedly about how “fresh” they felt. She was polite, but tried to explain to me that these particular tropes or characters or whatever were well-used in the genre and anything but “fresh.” Had I encountered those books even a year later, I would have deemed many of them much less exciting and masterful than I had the first time around. Reviews are snapshots taken at a particular time in a person’s reading “career” and are dependent on all sorts of factors, from how much that person has read to what tropes they do and do not generally love. I don’t think you need to explain why or how you’ve written a thoughtful, honest, even-handed review.
Jeez people. It’s 2016. Aren’t we over the ‘bad’ reviews debate yet?
This crap is why I gave up reviewing anything, even stuff I like. Who needs this shit?
@Ann Somerville: This is all for *C+* grade (another DA reviewer here). For C+. In my mind I don’t even think of the grade lower than C- as a “negative” grade and even on that opinions differ.
I meant to say lower than “C”.
@Rose: in what way did I suggest that it was a surprise to me? In essence, what I said was that I have been growing increasingly disenchanted with the site — and this thread sure hasn’t changed that.
As for the claims that C+ is a better than average grade, that hasn’t been true in the real world for probably decades. That’s part of the problem of associating letter grades with reviews. DA may say that on its scale C+ is a good grade, but it brings with it the associations of a world in which a single C+ on your transcript will almost certainly keep you out of the University of California, and probably Cal State as well. How many of the readers on this site would have considered a C+ on their own transcripts as anything but a poor grade?
None of this is to say that I think Jennie should not have read the book or written her review. It is the bestowal of a letter grade I object to, for the reasons stated.
@etv13: I honestly don’t see a big difference between letter grades vs. stars vs. rating on a scale from 1-10 or 1-100 or whatever. It’s just a snapshot of the content of the review. It’s certainly not meant to be condescending and I’m not sure why someone would perceive it that way.
I read New Yorker reviews and sometimes I can’t tell, even after reading the review, whether the reviewer liked or disliked the book/movie/play. Now, I’m not suggesting that the New Yorker should post letter grades, but I would guess that for the majority of DA’s audience, they are useful in conjunction with reading the review.
@Rose: also, I really, really resent the implication that I am lying about being a long time reader of this site.
Etv13 personally I find your comparison with the school transcripts flawed because we are not grading authors, we are telling other readers what our reaction to books was, however when two years after I arrived in the US, I managed to get in the American law school, I will tell you that I considered my C/C+ in English to be a very good grade. I worked hard for that grade and I earned it – considering that I was walking around everywhere with the dictionary I thought it was a huge progress for me. Obviously English native speaker may have a different thought about that grade, but that’s my point – it is all a matter of one person’s perspective and every review is one single reviewer’s opinion, nothing more than that.
@Michelle: FWIW I don’t have a problem with people questioning why I read and review historical romances even though I’m burned out on them. I think the question’s been answered though, by others as well as me, and I’m not sure there’s anything more that can be said that can satisfy those critics who think I’m wrong to read and review historical romances.
(This isn’t meant to shut down discussion; I’m just pointing out that the complaints persisted long after an alternative perspective/explanation had been offered.)
I personally have mixed feelings about grades, whether letters, stars or numbers, simply because I sometimes feel uncertain what grade to assign and have to resort to split grades like B-/B for that reason. It’s hard to sum up any book in a grade.
At the same time, I find grades very helpful because if I’m short on time, they can serve as one of the factors that helps me decide if I should read the review. And when I’m new to a review site, I frequently scan the A range reviews to get a sense of a given reviewer’s tastes. If they love books I loved there’s a greater chance that our tastes will match up in the future, versus if they loved books I didn’t care for.
@Sunita: Yes, I’m pretty sure I understand what the term “bias” means, and I did feel that acknowledging dissatisfaction with an *entire* genre lends an unusual degree of bias to a review that renders the review less than helpful, for me, in any case.
@Jennie, as I attempted to explain, grades seem condescending to me because the practice of assigning grades arose in a pedagogical context, and reflects a teacher-to-student relationship. Think of the implications of saying that someone got “schooled,” and that might help convey the sense of what I mean. Moreover, DA is not Humpty-Dumpty, and it cannot make “C+” mean a good or even neutral grade (even though that’s what it originally meant) after decades of grade inflation. If my daughter were getting C+’s, I would be very concerned. If I had gotten anything less than a B, my mother would have freaked out, and that was forty years ago. Stars or checkmarks don’t carry the same connotations.
I read an Anthony Lane review a couple of weeks ago, and I laughed and said to my husband, “I can’t tell if he liked the movie or not.” It did give me the clear impression that the film wasn’t for me, though.
@Janet/Robin: Oh, dear: “They gave Hoyt’s Sweetest Scoundrel a C grade too, and neither Loretta nor Elizabeth would know how to write a C book–even if they tried!!”
That comment just reflects a completely different understanding of reviewing and grading books (or even just the internal processing of them) than I have. I would never say that any author – even my beloved Laura Kinsale – couldn’t write a C book if she tried. By which I would mean a C book FOR ME. It’s not like my word is coming down from on high and it’s now the absolute law of the land. Chase doesn’t have to report to C+ prison for a proscribed period of time because I gave her that grade. I feel like I have to go back to that old phrase that some of us may remember arguing about way back in the early days of romance online: “A review is one person’s opinion.”
Anyway, back to “x author couldn’t possibly ever write a C grade book” – again, I don’t think there’s ANY author I’d say that about. I find it very hard to imagine a handful of authors writing a book that was an F for me – because an F in my mind represents such a total failure on every level, and my favorite authors are if nothing else strong prose stylists, so unless one changed their style radically they’d at least have that going for them.
For me, a C is such an innocuous grade to take offense over. Usually, for me a C means one of two things: 1) mediocre in every way or 2) a combination of some pretty good and pretty bad elements (in other words, a B+D). Like Janet, I am a little gobsmacked (aside: can one be a “little” gobsmacked? Maybe not) that it’s viewed so negatively.
@Sirius, But grading authors is exactly what you’re doing. Again, you’re not Humpty-Dumpty; you can’t make words mean whatever you decide they’ve going to mean. If you are giving something a letter grade, you are doing something other than just telling other readers what your reaction was.
@Jennie: “Of course I have biases; I’m a human being, not a review-producing automaton. I still read historical romance, so I still review historical romance. I often note, in the interests of full disclosure, that I’m burned out on a lot of aspects of historical romance. This review is not the first time I’ve stated this.”
Just to clarify though, I expect reviewers to express opinions and hopefully include substantive evidence from texts to support an opinion. I don’t mind negative reviews either, even ones for this particular book. However, you expressed dissatisfaction and “burn out” with an entire genre, which was not actually very helpful to me in giving me a better sense of your interpretation of Chase’s book. I ended up interpreting your review as someone that does not like the genre, or no longer likes the genre, and was therefore reading the novel through pre-conceived lens and probably a somewhat sour one at that. I’m new to Dear Author and do not know what you’ve said in other reviews. In the future I would be inclined to read reviews from reviewers that are not going into the genre with a negative perspective first and foremost. Anyway, it’s just one reader’s perspective, if interested.
@quiet451: I don’t see that she was blaming the site at all; just noting that my review here at DA was mentioned in comments there.
Etv13 , I do not believe that I write reviews for authors in the first place, so how could I grade them? I grade my reaction to their books ( by the way I certainly don’t consider it perfect same as Janine, but a lot of readers seem to find it helpful for them).
@Sharon: But here’s what I don’t get: shouldn’t you then be GLAD that I’m honest about being burned out on historical romances? Isn’t that helpful to you in either evaluating my reviews or avoiding them entirely? Why is it something you’re criticizing? That’s what I don’t get.
As for “having a slightly less biased reviewer” reviewing historicals, we’re not assigned books here. We read what we want and we review what we want (at least I do, and I believe it’s the same for other reviewers). I won’t usually review a book if someone else has reviewed it, unless my review is radically different enough to make having two reviews worthwhile. (Or, very occasionally, two people submit reviews of the same book around the same time, just by coincidence.)
So, I’ll continue to review historical when I read them, and I’ll probably continue to note my historical malaise where I think it’s appropriate to note. And some people, apparently, will continue not to like it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@Sirius: When you assign a letter grade to something, you are grading it. It doesn’t matter for whose benefit you think you are doing it, that is what you are doing. And given the many people on this thread who reacted to a C+ as a negative assessment, the reviewers on the site ought perhaps to consider whether these grades are an effective way of communicating their reactions to the books to which they assign them.
@Janet: Thanks. I know what you mean; there are absolutely romance conventions that would have felt fresh to me at one time that I roll my eyes at now. Conversely, there are things that wouldn’t have bothered me before (like the fact that the “good” characters always know that bloodletting is a bad idea) because I’d only read that scenario once or twice but now that I’ve seen it dozens of times it makes me grit my teeth.
I actually have a hard time imagining reading a genre for a long period of time and not having your relationship with it change somewhat, for good or ill.
@etv13: Actually, grading was invented in a commercial context (factories), and were adapted to an academic context at Cambridge (https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Education_and_Instructional_Assessment/Grading/Purpose)
As for grading the arts more generally, it’s been a practice for at least a century, so it’s well-established, if not universally adored (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_(classification)). I have not historically been a huge fan of grading books, but like @Janine said, it can provide a quick check when thinking about how a particular book compares to others that are similar or that have elicited similar responses. I usually write up my review and then assign the grade, so the grade is a reflection of the review, not the other way around. And many readers appreciate grades, so we use them. Still, Jennie has written quite a long review here, and it’s certainly possible to ignore the grade and focus on the review text. This is what I often do, especially when I read reviews on other sites where I feel that the grades do not conform to the actual text of the review (or where the grading system doesn’t reflect my own grading sensibility).
@Jennie: Yeah, I think the discussion somewhere in this thread about the difference between grading a book and grading an author is relevant here. Btw, I am commenting here as both “Janet” and “Janet/Robin” because sometimes I’m logged in when I comment (Janet) and sometimes I’m not (Janet/Robin). My avatar should be the same, though. Sorry!
@Janine:
About newbie authors fans reacting the same way I believe it is happening more and more. I recently wrote a 2 star amazon review on a recently released book. I noted someone had voted up every positive review and voted down every negative one. I checked back and sure enough mine had been noted as not helpful. Rabid fan? Author? Who knows. But I think this is happening more often.
@etv13: A single C+ wouldn’t keep someone out of CSU, but that’s neither here nor there. It wouldn’t even keep someone out of the less competitive UC campuses (I actually know what I’m talking about a little bit here).
If it were me, or my child, it would depend on the context: a C+ in History or English – I would expect better. A C+ in Statistics – hallelujah and probably a miracle, in my case. But again, I’m getting far afield. A C+ in a book review? I’m not going to pretend it’s a great grade. For the purposes of book reviews, I personally consider a C to be mediocre. So a C+ is slightly above that. OTOH, it’s just a touch below a B-, which is a perfectly respectable grade, in schooling or in book reviews.
I don’t know. I just don’t see why a C+ is worth all this sturm und drang. I will say that these discussions are coalescing the idea that for me, the grade PLUS the review should be taken as a whole. The grade is a snapshot, but as you and others have made clear, different grades are perceived differently by different readers. The review should expand upon the grade and I think mine did. I actually did say some positive things about the book, you know. :-)
@Janine: Yeah, I do sometimes struggle with grading. I mentioned in another post that a C could mean either mediocre or uneven. I sometimes give B range grades to books that are flawed but really entertained me. Or it might be a book that I thought was good but not quite a A. A range grades are usually for books that both really entertained or moved me and which I thought were technically excellent (in my subjectively objective opinion). D is almost the biggest diss of a grade since it means bad but not bad enough rate an F. F goes without saying – a failure on all fronts.
I’ve said before that I’m an instinctive grader, to some degree, which is why I sometimes worry that my grade doesn’t match my review (my other issue is that I usually find it easier to articulate criticisms than praise). Again, all I can do is try to be transparent about why I’m giving a book the grade I’m giving it.
@etv13: I feel like there’s two separate issues here:
1) A difference of opinion about how each letter grade should be viewed, which is not one that I think can be resolved because everyone’s perception is going to be different. I don’t think that any other sort of ranking system would be free of the same problems – for instance, the San Francisco Chronicle has for as long as I remember had little pictures accompanying its movie reviews: a man asleep in a chair, sitting in the chair but not looking interested, sitting forward, jumping out of the chair clapping, etc. My perception of the guy sitting up in the chair leaning forward might not be yours, though – is that “good” or just “okay”?
So maybe you’re arguing for there to be no sort of other indicator of the reviewer’s opinion besides the review itself. It’s fine to advocate for that, but I’d point out that most of the other romance review sites that I know of issue letter grades (caveat: I’m not terribly au courant on romance review sites). Even Amazon has their star systems – how is that any better?
2) The other issue I’m getting from you is the perception that it’s inappropriate for reviewers even to criticize books – as you say, you think it looks like we’re “schooling” authors by assigning letter grades. With all due respect, if I had given birth to a child on the first day that I read an online argument about how romance readers have no right to criticize authors and it’s presumptuous because what have THEY published lately? I’d have a kid that could vote in the upcoming primaries. That horse is dead. The dogs that consumed that horsemeat are dead of old age. The glue that was made of the horse’s bones or whatever (this has taken a very grisly turn, hasn’t it?) has dried up. I have no more fucks to give about the argument that it’s condescending or rude or mean or presumptuous for me to say negative things about romance novels. I’ve just been around too long and have argued that argument too many times.
@etv13: Re your response to Sirius; I disagree (surprise!). A grade in school goes onto a transcript and is factored into a GPA. The same is not true for letter grades given to romances. There’s not some overall Loretta Chase grade that my review has brought down from a B+ to a B, or whatever.
@etv13: I don’t understand why Dear Author is coming under attack for assigning letter grades to book reviews. Loads and loads of review sites do this.
While you clearly see a difference between letter grades and stars, bookies or other methods, I, personally, see them as the exact same thing, just expressed differently. However, even if I were to agree with you that they are substantively different, AAR uses letter grades, Smexy Books uses letter grades. Smart Bitches Trashy Books uses letter grades – why is Dear Author the bad guy here?
The other thing is, of course, that Dear Author (and the other sites mentioned above) have been using letter grades since they began. It’s not new or novel or the slightest bit unusual. Why is it suddenly an issue that DA needs to be taken to task over? This is a genuine enquiry. I’m honestly baffled.
As for your other point. A review is a review of the *book*, not the author. A grade is assigned to the book, not the author. (As an example, one of my favourite author people is Charlotte Stein. If I were grading her (which I, of course, wouldn’t) I’d give her an A. She’s an awesome person. However, that hasn’t stopped me from giving books she has written a C grade. The two things are not at all connected.) I can say with 100% confidence that none of the reviewers here review authors. We review books.
And with that, I think I’m out for the night. Dinner* isn’t going to make itself. Sorry for dominating the discussion so much, but not being able to get into the commenting system for 48 hours was making me itchy. :-)
* Chicken, quinoa and kale. I’ve never made kale before but I’m pretty sure my Californian card would be revoked at some point in the near future if I didn’t cook it soon. I had no idea kale came in 27-lb. bags requiring two large Sherpas to wrestle into the fridge. Is that normal?
@Jennie: “But here’s what I don’t get: shouldn’t you then be GLAD that I’m honest about being burned out on historical romances? Isn’t that helpful to you in either evaluating my reviews or avoiding them entirely? Why is it something you’re criticizing? That’s what I don’t get.”
I’ll try to clarify one more time: I would prefer that any reviewer who is posting a review *as a reviewer for a website* at the very least approach the book with an open mind and read the book on its own terms rather than with a sour disposition against *an entire genre.* Your approach is the issue here and has led to some reader problems with the overall review and I think it is partly because your review represents Dear Author website to a large degree, even though you read for pleasure and you review in your leisure time. Again though, I am not objecting to the criticisms, though most of them weren’t significant issues that impeded my enjoyment, and so I liked the book more than you did. I don’t in fact mind negative reviews, or even scathing reviews, for that matter. I’m also not a fangirl of any author because I don’t approach any literary work from that stance. I just believe firmly that all books should be approached with an open mind rather than preconceived prejudices against the genre itself. If you wrote a review of a romance novel with a disclaimer that you actually do not like romances, I would have nearly the same reaction as I did when I first read your review.
@Kaetrin: “While you clearly see a difference between letter grades and stars, bookies or other methods, I, personally, see them as the exact same thing, just expressed differently.”
I agree! I expect letter grades or even numerical grades to work in conjunction with the content of a review and always view them together.
@Janine: “TBH, I can only put down this reaction to Loretta Chase fandom. Had a newbie author gotten this exact same C+ review, would that author’s readers have responded in such way, even if they liked the book? I doubt it.”
I think you’re conflating different issues and probably different reader responses here on this thread. Some readers may very well participate in fandom, but not all readers. I detest the concept of fandom and its culture and enjoy reading negative reviews, even of favorite authors. I distrust reviews though that offer disclaimers that an entire genre is substandard and then proceed with a review of the book anyway, as if the review could have much merit after that. That’s really the sum of my disagreement.
@Sharon:
“I would prefer that any reviewer who is posting a review *as a reviewer for a website* at the very least approach the book with an open mind and read the book on its own terms rather than with a sour disposition against *an entire genre.*”
Yeah, but you’re not the boss of Jennie or anyone else. Lots of reviewers are burned out on parts of a genre, without admitting it, but will still give a new book a whirl. You’ve had the reasoning explained over and over and at this point, you’re just concern trolling. And annoying the pants off people who aren’t pushing some damn agenda as you clearly are. you don’t like the review – too bad, move on. Make your own assessment for god’s sake. Anyone would think you were being forced to read this site with a gun at your head.
@etv13:
“But grading authors is exactly what you’re doing.”
Oh bollocks. If you can’t tell the difference between a book and an author, and a review of the former against a grade of the latter (how the hell would you do that? “I give Ms Somerville a -C because she has a potty mouth, although she writes semi-literately”? I don’t think so.) Now Jane’s called you on your sockpuppeting, maybe you could stop with the strawmen and misrepresentations too.
@Sharon: Actually, Jennie has clarified that she’s only suffering from burnout in Historical Romance, not the Romance genre as a whole. And as Janine pointed out earlier in the thread, Jennie gave another HR an A- not two weeks ago. Her Best of 2015 list contains three historicals (50% of the list); in fact, if you scan through Jennie’s reviews (https://dearauthor.com/author/jennie/), the image you seem to have of her as a cranky Romance-hating reader just doesn’t square with the facts. As for representing DA, there are at least five of us commenting here who are part of DA, and we’re all squarely behind Jennie and her reviews.
And as for “preconceived prejudices against the genre itself,” I have yet to encounter ONE reader who does not just outright hate and refuse to any number of things the genre. Which, again, is not relevant to how Jennie approached this book. If her reviews don’t work for you, or you’ve never suffered from burnout in the genre and don’t find that helpful, of course there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s good information to have in figuring out whose reading preferences align with yours. I doubt most people read just one review for each book these days, anyway – there are just too many great blogs around that are easily accessible. Of course not everyone’s going to let you know some of the factors currently influencing their reading, so what might look like “open-mindedness” may just be closed-mouthedness.
Just to clarify, etv13 has been commenting at DA and other blogs under that name for years.
@Janet: “in fact, if you scan through Jennie’s reviews (https://dearauthor.com/author/jennie/), the image you seem to have of her as a cranky Romance-hating reader just doesn’t square with the facts. As for representing DA, there are at least five of us commenting here who are part of DA, and we’re all squarely behind Jennie and her reviews.”
Well, I don’t know if I can say that I have an image of her. Instead, I was assessing her own words about genre burnout given that she posted them for the public. And yes, I can see that the reviewers are sticking together on the issue, but hopefully reader comments are useful too to reflect upon.
@Sharon: But you’re focusing on a mere handful of words and ignoring literally hundreds of others, in this review alone. Jennie wrote a thoughtful review, detailing both strengths and weaknesses in the book, as she perceived them. She gave it an above average grade. She did not, even in the words you are focused on, “offer disclaimers that an entire genre is substandard” — she noted that she’s currently feeling some burnout in Historical Romance. That may take on a grander scope in your inference, but even granting that, there’s still a substantial and substantive difference between what she said in her review and what I quoted from you.
@Janet:
“etv13 has been commenting at DA and other blogs under that name for years.”
Well then, my apologies for thinking she was the sockpuppeteer (at least, the *other* one). But she was still talking bollocks.
@Sharon: Fair enough.
@Janet: yes, that’s what I thought too.
@Janet: “But you’re focusing on a mere handful of words and ignoring literally hundreds of others, in this review alone. Jennie wrote a thoughtful review, detailing both strengths and weaknesses in the book, as she perceived them. She gave it an above average grade. She did not, even in the words you are focused on, “offer disclaimers that an entire genre is substandard” — she noted that she’s currently feeling some burnout in Historical Romance. That may take on a grander scope in your inference, but even granting that, there’s still a substantial and substantive difference between what she said in her review and what I quoted from you.”
The words, “I have the feeling that Dukes Prefer Blondes is one of those historicals that will work better for someone who is not burned out on the genre the way that I am,” renders the commentary preceding it problematic, and it looks from upthread I’m not alone on this one. There is not a “grander scope” for me other than that the reviewer is burnt out on historical romances while simultaneously writing historical romance reviews. I wouldn’t have written so much here, lol, except that I think nearly all of the DA reviewers have written to me based on my comments. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this issue :)
@Janet: Thank you. For the record, I have never posted here as anything but “etv13” — which is also my user name on librarything and livejournal — in all but my very first comment, on a review of Thom Lane’s The Healing Heart, when I commented as (I think, I haven’t gone back to look) “beth.” (So now you can probably figure out what the “e” in “etv13” stands for.) Ann Somerville’s comment made me so angry I am still shaking.
@Jennie and all the others who still don’t understand why I think there is a distinction between letter-grades and stars/flaming hearts/whatever — letter grades carry a lot of baggage with them that stars and idiosyncratic markers like flaming hearts don’t have. It is a lot easier to define your terms when you are using terms that don’t have strong associations from other contexts. As to letter grades having an industrial rather than pedagogic origin — well, if that matters in a world where most peoples’ association with them is educational rather than industrial, that only makes it worse. As to why I am “picking” on Dear Author — because I started by commenting on this particular review, that’s why, and also because I happen to read and be familiar with Dear Author. I am not a regular reader of those other sites you mention. (I am not likely to be a regular reader of Dear Author for much longer, at this rate.)
As the mother of a high school senior, I am very well aware that you need better than a 4.0 GPA to get into all but maybe UC Merced, and getting into the high-demand Cal State campuses like CS Long Beach also requires a very high grade point average. Sure, if you get straight A’s in all but one class, and a lot of them are AP (where an A gets you five points instead of four), maybe a C+ won’t spoil your chances — but I wouldn’t count on it. I could write a book on all the reasons I found that circumstance extremely troubling, but that is the current reality, and it’s been the reality for a long, long time among the circles in which I move, and in which I would guess a large number of Dear Author readers move, that a C+ is not a desirable or even acceptable grade.
I’ve said before, but I will repeat because a number of people in this thread seem to be hard of hearing, that I have no problem with Jennie’s reading and reviewing the book, or with the content of her review. I have a different opinion of the book, but Jennie is entitled to both her opinion and the expression of it, and you can count me among those who think her stating that she is burned out on the sub-genre is a useful bit of information that I am glad she disclosed. If she thinks the books is mediocre (or worse than that, even), she has every right to say so. What I am objecting to are the people who seem to think everyone should automatically interpret a C+ as being a fine, above-average grade. That is obviously not what a C+ connotes to a large number of Dear Author readers.
And then let me be clear, because again a bunch of people on this thread seem to be obtuse, or reading in bad faith, that when I say “not an acceptable grade,” I am not saying “not an acceptable grade to be given to a book by Loretta Chase.” It’s the project of assigning grades to books, not the assignment of this particular grade to this particular book, that I object to. I am pretty sure that I have said that on this site before. You can give anyone you like a bad review. Maybe Janet can back me up when I say I’ve been known to say I disagree, but I have never said a reviewer isn’t entitled to her opinion. And then I’m entitled to my opinion, and I have the right to say whatever scathing thing I like about the quality of the review. Which, let it be noted, I haven’t done here.
On the author/work distinction — well, sure. You’re assigning a grade to a book, not an author. Fair enough. The teacher is really grading the essay, but it’s still the writer who gets “schooled.”
And the sad thing is, I started reading DA, and posting comments in the threads here, because I enjoy reading about and talking about books, and in all this kerfuffle, the actual content of both the book and the review have gone by the wayside.
@etv13: So when I politely respond to your comment you’re resentful of the implications, and what Ann Sommerville wrote made you so angry that you’re shaking. Yet you see nothing wrong with referring to commenters on this thread as obtuse and hard of hearing – which, when used as an insult, is ableist besides. Is this the sort of conversation you want to have? I don’t.
How people interpret Jennie’s review and grade is up to them; some people will find it negative, or unhelpful, while others won’t. But Jennie can only share her thoughts, she is not responsible for how others perceive them. I’ll add hat contrary to what you argue, not everyone associates letter grades with school as strongly as you seem to (in many countries, students receive numerical grades). You’re certainly free to think that a review with a letter grade reflects a reviewer schooling an author. But you’re not entitled to having others agree with your opinion.
I went back to take a look at the DA review of Vixen in Velvet. I commented there, too. Suzanne gave it a C-. I said I liked the book, and I said why. Nobody got defensive about Suzanne’ s review.
@ Rose: there is nothing polite about implying that someone is a liar or a sock puppet. As for the kind of conversation I want to have — with you, I don’t care to have any kind of conversation. All you appear to want to do is fling accusations. First you called me a liar, and then an “ableist” — why the hell should I want to have a conversation with you? Or continue to read a site with which you’re associated? I’m done.
@etv13: I implied neither. In my most recent post, I did point out that the use of “hard of hearing” as an insult is ableist. When discussing a book or broader issues related to romance and reading, I’d prefer not to see unsubstantiated accusations of sockpuppetry OR ableist language. One can share a dissenting opinion (as you did in response to Suzanne’s review) without complaining that the reviewer is annoying fans or being uncongenial by using letter grades.
It’s unfortunate that this is what you chose to take a stand about, but that’s your call.
@Rose: in your response to my first comment in this thread, you implied that I was lying when I said I was a long time reader of this site. Then you said I was “ableist.” (It was Ann Somerville who accused me of sockpuppetry, and only half recanted the accusation — she referred to the “other sock puppet”.) Neither accusation is polite, nor evidences a sincere desire to engage in a conversation in good faith.
And now it is 3:15 in the morning, and I am truly done, for a few weeks at least.
@Rose:
Too far. People other than you are entitled to an opinion. I don’t agree with ETV13 and lest I be accused of sock puppetry I have also been lurking and intermittently posting here for years. Your commments (and others in this thread) are to me incivil.
tl;dr version of this comment thread- Y’all aren’t reviewing the way I think you should review. Also, wont someone think of the poor authors! /sarcasm
Seriously? As someone who has been burned out on historicals for years, yet still holds out hope for that one special book that will end the malaise, I really resent the idea that Jennie shouldn’t review historicals. Basically what you’re saying is that my interests in this review don’t matter, that burnout isn’t a thing that many of us suffer from at some point and hope to get over and having reviews that reflect my experiences dont matter.
Just as a general observation, it has been interesting to watch a variety of reviewers gather together to circle the wagons. Authors do not comment on reviews of their books (or do so only very, very rarely) because it’s generally a risky proposition, and I wonder why reviewers don’t do the same thing. By that I mean both authors and reviewers have written a work the best they can, so why don’t reviewers allow their words stand the way authors do? One likely answer is that reviews are to start conversations? That may work, but it may also backfire as it does when authors reply. I definitely can understand anyone’s wanting to defend a position, but sometimes less is really more, by letting what you’ve already thoroughly pondered, constructed and presented stand as is. It’s a much stronger position in the end. Let the readers react as they will, like they do in reading a book, while the author stands strong and firm with what she has created, and without the cavalry rushing in which would show a sign of weakness.
Hi Bronte , why would you take the calling out of sock puppets personally? It was going on in this thread earlier – it is not an accusation , it is a fact. I did not even look before Jane commented but of course I was curious and did look after that . She was vague sure in order to keep the anonymity ( I did not talk to her , that’s just my speculation) of the commenters intact so she did not name the sock puppets, but they were playing here and needed to be stopped and they knew perfectly clear whom she was referring to it looks like .
I’m a reader here and not a reviewer. I posted my opinion early on, before this thread exploded to the 90+ comments it has now. As I said before, the context of the reviewers current malaise with the genre was useful to me. She was explicit in labeling those tropes that she was especially sensitive to. And she gave us the necessary information to properly filter that.
I’m not sure what else you could ask for. Expecting only people who are fresh to the genre to review? Everyone carries with them the filter of their experiences.
Everyone is of course entitled to a difference of opinion, but please don’t assume that this debate is somehow readers vs. reviewers. That is a gross oversimplification.
As far as grades go, I actually usually ignore them unless it’s a DNF or an F+, but only because those reviews usually end up being the most entertaining. The content of the review is much more useful to me in determining what I will like than an arbitrary grade which is ultimately a measure of one person’s opinion of the book. (Not the author, never the author, an author is so much more than one single work, or even the sum of all their works)
But here again this is all my opinion. I’m going to do me, you are more than welcome to do you.
@Rose, @etv13 and @bronte: etv13 is not a sock puppet and has been posting here for years. I was about to say that when Robin beat me to it. There was someone else who was a sock puppet in this thread and seems to have taken Jane’s suggestion to pick one name and stick with it under advisement since it was made. We know that because we can see IP addresses and more than one poster in this thread was using the same IP address.
Re. grades. Honestly, I can see both sides of this argument. I don’t love grades on reviews period. But they are very useful in some ways, so I see them as a necessary evil. As for letters vs. numbers, my elementary school years were spent in Israel, where the report cards came with number grades. So I don’t have the same association to letter grades, but it doesn’t bother me that etv13 does. She is entitled to feel the way she does, and we are entitled to do things our way.
@evt13 – I recognize your handle and iirc, I’ve enjoyed your comments in the past. I do not understand what happened on this thread, but it’s relatively rare on DA. I hope you’ll be back.
I never suggested that anyone here is a sock puppet; that was Ann Sommerville. And contrary to etv13’s assertions, I also never suggested that she was lying. I did note that if she’s been reading DA for years, the tone of the reviews, the fact that they include letter grades, and the objectives of this website cannot be a surprise. And really, it’s not like DA pioneered the use of letter grades in reviews – even in the romance community, major sites like AAR and SBTB were already using them.
But really, this discussion should be about the book and the review, not any individual posters. Jennie’s review was helpful *to me*. I fully understand why it might not be so to others, but a review cannot be relevant for everyone, nor will it always please an author’s fans. I don’t think this should be a reviewer’s goal. A review should communicate what the reviewer thought, and why. It is up to the readers to decide if that is relevant to them and should factor into their decision whether to read a book or not.
@Rose:
Yeah, I know. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I aggregated responses to multiple comments in one comment and I see that was confusing.
Agreed.
@Sirius: I didn’t take the comment about sock puppets personally and I have zero problems with them being called out. I did have a big problem with Rose’s response to etv13 which to me was uncivil.
@Bronte: Ah. I apologize for misunderstanding you then. I thought that you saying that you don’t want to be accused of being a sock puppet indicated that you took it as directed at you and wanted to clarify that.
@quiet451: “Just as a general observation, it has been interesting to watch a variety of reviewers gather together to circle the wagons. ”
As someone who reads reviews here regularly over the past few years but seldom comments on the threads, I was surprised that there was a banding together of reviewers, almost as if there is a party line and outsiders are not welcome to contest it. On the other hand, I learned new words, such as sock puppet and concern troll :) I suppose what is troubling about accusations is that it feels as if name calling and labeling is applied to anyone who disagreed, which is unfortunate, I think, in the interests of what I thought was supposed to be a discussion about the review of a book. I posted quite a bit earlier, but mainly because every DA reviewer kept writing separately to me. So for me, less is more from the reviewers too.
@Jennie: So how did the kale turn out? I don’t mind baby kale (Starbucks uses it in their veggie and brown rice salad that I like), and I like the Trader Joe’s kale slaw (I suspect that’s the sugary dressing and the dried cranberries), but overall I still prefer chard to kale. Quinoa, though, makes a fabulous breakfast porridge: http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/warm-and-nutty-cinnamon-quinoa-recipe.html.
@Sharon: I feel like you’re consistently overstating my position to the point where any claims that you don’t have a particular ax to grind here are starting to come off as really disingenuous. First it was the word “bias” that kept popping up, and now you’ve graduated to “sour”, which makes it sound like I opened the Kindle with a scowl on my face and my mouth puckered up, just WAITING for something to complain about. This is not the case. I requested the book, and started the book, with no particular expectations beyond the fact that I have read and enjoyed Loretta Chase in the past. Yes, I also knew that I suffer from historical malaise, but that has not stopped me from reading, reviewing, and often, enjoying historical romances. It didn’t stop me from finding this book to be a slightly above average historical romance that I had (and have) no doubt plenty of readers will like better than I did.
I’m not sure what you want. Some people agree with you that reviewers shouldn’t come to the table with any preconceived notions; others (like me) think that that’s a pretty impossible standard to set. It seems unlikely that any of us our going to change our minds at this point.
@Jennie: “I’m not sure what you want. Some people agree with you that reviewers shouldn’t come to the table with any preconceived notions; others (like me) think that that’s a pretty impossible standard to set. It seems unlikely that any of us our going to change our minds at this point.”
I do think reviewers, and readers for that matter, come to the table with biases and opinions, and I was not indicating otherwise. I’m a pretty avid reader of reviews in general, and I think the difference here for me is that tend to view a website reviewer as more than a private reader, and more of a representative of a site, even though reviewers are also individual people with individual preferences. So, I hold public reviewers to a higher standard. On a more public scale, for instance and just as an analogy, I regularly read film and book reviews in the NYTimes, and if a reviewer posted a film review and stated that she/he no longer enjoyed a particular type of film anyway, fill in the genre blank, that would leave me questioning the entire review as in the review would be about the person rather than an attempt at a fair and impartial review of the aesthetics of the product. I would have the same reaction to a film reviewer walking out of a movie halfway through and posting a review anyway. I don’t know if that helps, and I don’t think I expect anything or have an “ax to grind” any more than anyone else here who has written their thoughts. My comments are not personal but more critically reflective of what I look for in the review process itself. I’ve sincerely tried to keep the topic on the discussion rather than on personal attacks. Hope that helps!
@quiet451: Hmm. I suppose I could not comment on the responses to my reviews; if anything, in the past I’ve felt like it’s part of my “job” to participate in the discussion after a review is posted. Not that I mind doing so, but I wouldn’t mind *not* doing so, either, if readers felt that it the reviewer participating inhibited discussion.
But I honestly think this review and the response to it is an anomaly, not just for my reviews but for the vast majority of the reviews I’ve seen at DA. Sometimes discussions just takes off in a weird way. It didn’t occur to me to not participate. It didn’t occur to me to let the review “speak for itself” since it obviously wasn’t doing so for all readers. In retrospect I don’t think my clarifications have done much good, since the “other side” seems as set in their POV as I am in mine.
As for “circling the wagons”, while I appreciate the support, I don’t take it so much as a case of DA reviewers sticking together, right or wrong. Rather, I suspect that others who review don’t much like the idea of being told that they shouldn’t review certain genres, for whatever reason.
@Sharon: I assure you, there is no party line. As I noted in my previous response, it may be that other reviewers don’t take kindly to being told what to read and review. But everyone can speak for themselves. :-)
As for name calling, persistently being told that I’m sour doesn’t *feel* like it’s meant as a compliment.
@Janet: Eh. I like kale but don’t love it. I prefer chard or even spinach (with butter, which probably negates the health benefits). Thanks for the quinoa recipe – I will have to try that! I loved Cream of Wheat as a child, and quinoa strikes me as somewhat similar.
@Jennie: Ooh if you were a Cream of Wheat lover, you have to try cream of buckwheat! Much healthier (and gluten free), and you can make it sweet or savory. I buy this brand: http://www.vitacost.com/pocono-organic-cream-of-buckwheat-13-oz. I haven’t made this yet, but it’s on my radar: http://www.myrecipes.com/recipe/almond-cream-buckwheat-pears
@Janet: Love buckwheat!
@Sirius: You should try that cream of buckwheat cereal, if you haven’t already. My favorite way to make it is to put butter, maple syrup, and shredded cheese on top. It’s salty and sweet and gooey and OMG so comforting!
@Janet: have not tried yet no. Thank you.
@Sirius: I get it at a local market, but I know it’s available from Amazon.
@Sharon:
But Jennie never said she no longer enjoyed historical romance, nor is that the case, as a number of us have tried to explain (and even provided links to back up) in this thread. I don’t understand why you persist in insisting that is so on the basis of one or two sentences in the review in the face of all further evidence to the contrary.
@Jennie: “As for name calling, persistently being told that I’m sour doesn’t *feel* like it’s meant as a compliment.”
Not what I said. Being sour, or in your words “burnt out,” is about your views on a *genre* of writing, not you as a person.
@Janine: “… as a number of us have tried to explain (and even provided links to back up) in this thread. I don’t understand why you persist in insisting that is so on the basis of one or two sentences in the review in the face of all further evidence to the contrary.”
This type of comment is what I meant by it feels like a circling of the wagons. If we all agree that individuals can have their own views, a comment like a “number of us” continually trying to change a different individual response seems odd. To me anyway. That’s my own personal response. Why can’t an individual reader have a different position without persistently being , uh, instructed?, on the review process– such as the comment, “even provided links to back up”? Just my perspective but I read a number of sites and I don’t think I recall any thread where as many reviewers kept going back to that theme. More generally, someone with a different view states it and life goes on. Leaving the wagons out of this, much of the thread has been circular, covering the same issues repeatedly–on both sides?–but the reviewers appear to outnumber the individuals who disagree which has prolonged the circling as I see it–as an individual reader.
@Sharon: “…and if a reviewer posted a film review and stated that she/he no longer enjoyed a particular type of film anyway…”
Well, it’s a good thing that I never said anything of the kind, then.
@Jennie: “Well, it’s a good thing that I never said anything of the kind, then.”
We’ll have to agree to disagree then. Saying you are burnt out on historical romances is much too akin to saying you are not enjoying them.
@quiet451: “much of the thread has been circular, covering the same issues repeatedly–on both sides?–but the reviewers appear to outnumber the individuals who disagree which has prolonged the circling as I see it–as an individual reader.”
Thank you. As a fairly new poster here, it’s been fascinating to see the over-reaction to criticism. Someone posted earlier up-thread that the type of discussion on this thread is unusual here. I certainly hope so, otherwise, it leaves a lingering and curious sense that the Dear Author site consists of a clique that cannot handle reader debate or dissent. I noted mention a couple of times earlier of outsiders posting here, as if that is a bad thing.
@Janet: Ooh, with pears!? That sounds delicious.
@Sharon:
“the Dear Author site consists of a clique that cannot handle reader debate or dissent”
You really are new here, aren’t you?
@quiet451: Of course you have the right to your POV, but this reads to me like another old internet argument I’m familiar with, which goes something like, “I have the right to my opinion and when you disagree with me or try to present facts that contradict my opinion you are bullying me/being mean.” This is a long thread (obviously). Some people have one POV; some people have a different one. It so happens that some of the people (not all) on one “side” of the argument are DA reviewers. They have as much right to their opinions as you have to yours. Their opinions don’t negate yours; they don’t silence you. They just disagree with you.
As for the discussion being circular, I don’t disagree, but I don’t see anything particularly sinister about that. Both sides have repeated themselves. You’re choosing to see it as “DA reviewers vs. non-reviewers”, but that ignores the other people who have disagreed with you. The fact that your opinion is apparently the minority one doesn’t mean that you’re being ganged up on.
@Sharon:
It is indeed very unusual here. I have no issue with debate or dissent, but I’m not used to people arguing with facts. Speaking only for myself, my dad is a scientist, and I was brought up that it’s a good thing to argue with opinions, but less desirable to argue with facts. A two week old A- review of a historical romance, written by Jennie in the midst of her historical burnout, is factual evidence that Jennie still enjoys historical romance. Given the number of global warming deniers, I probably shouldn’t be surprised that you disagree with factual evidence, but I am. But by all means, carry on.
@Sharon: What you see as “over-reaction to criticism” I see as “disagreement.” You say you’re fairly new to the site; I wonder where on the internet you’ve been hanging out that people are so thin-skinned that they perceive any disagreement as an attack.
Further, it baffles me that you think DA is a site where “reader debate and dissent” aren’t tolerated, considering there are now over 150 posts consisting of exactly that – reader debate and dissent. If the thread had been shut down, if posters had been banned – then you’d have an argument for stating that DA can’t handle reader debate or dissent. People disagreeing with you isn’t the grave offense you seem to think it is.
@Janine: “A two week old A- review of a historical romance, written by Jennie in the midst of her historical burnout, is factual evidence that Jennie still enjoys historical romance. Given the number of global warming deniers, I probably shouldn’t be surprised that you disagree with factual evidence, but I am. But by all means, carry on.”
I was assessing the content of one review, which is the one under discussion here in this thread, not past reviews. A reviewer, like all writers, is responsible for the words she uses and is subject to critique, and so it is only the words used in the Chase review under discussion. She may well be able to evaluate the genre more fairly than she’s been able to articulate in the current review, and if so, that’s wonderful. But readers shouldn’t have to research a reviewer’s history to determine that. Providing past records of fairness does not negate the ideas she represented in the review she just submitted. As a reader of historical romance though, it is good to know that a reviewer is able to assess the genre fairly, which is really the main point after all if we are all investing time into consuming these texts.
@Jennie: “I wonder where on the internet you’ve been hanging out that people are so thin-skinned that they perceive any disagreement as an attack.”
Well, “attack” is your word, not mine. I am a college English professor and am quite comfortable debating ideas and don’t see myself as especially “thin-skinned,” since you asked :) Mind you, some of the words such as “sock puppet, outsider, disingenuous, concern troll” lodged against readers who are here because they are “engaging in fandom” was a little much on the civility scale, and much of this comes from DA reviewers too. Maybe this is just the culture of the Dear Author site. There appeared to be plenty of insult flying above between different readers that bordered on personal attacks rather than substantive content debate.
Nevertheless, I was agreeing with another reader on the subject of her comment about DA reviewers “circling the wagon” over and over and that the unanimity from nearly all reviewers to a few reader criticisms is curious and seems like an over-reaction to criticism. Yes, you have been criticized for what you wrote by a few people, but that is the price you pay for being a public writer. I would prefer to debate ideas and avoid name calling and insults. Other than that, we’ll have to agree to disagree very likely on the source of my criticism of your comments on burn out, which is fine with me.
Is there anything about this review that inspired newer commenters to join the discussion, and apparently just to tell Jennie that she’s doing it wrong? The previous DA review of a Chase book was a C-, and it didn’t seem to bother anyone. Is it because Jennie is burned out on historicals? I’m burned out on historicals. This does not mean that I expect every historical I read to suck, or that I am biased against historicals; it means that I enjoy fewer historicals than I used to, and what was once a B book might now be a C for me. I believe others have already noted that what once seemed fresh might not be experienced as such as one reads more in the genre, and certain tropes and conventions may become more of an issue for a reader.
The insistence that all DA reviewers are engaging in some kind of circle the wagons groupthink – um, no. It’s hardly surprising that people with reviewing experience will want to weigh in when the discussion focuses on what reviews can/should communicate, and to share their thoughts and approach (for the record, I’m not a DA reviewer and haven’t been for some time). In a discussion, some people will agree with one view, and others will agree with another; this is a normal discussion, not a conspiracy. Meanwhile, complaining about overreaction to criticism, and then reacting in such a manner when your own points and arguments are challenged, is not conducive to a discussion.
DA reviews won’t work for everyone. Not all of the reviews here work for me. This doesn’t mean that the reviewers, or by extension DA, are doing it wrong.
@Jennie: Spinach is definitely superior to kale! Re quinoa, I like it best when it’s mixed with other things, like rice or barley.
@Rose: Have many “newer commenters” joined the discussion, or is that just a perception based on one or two responders here? I have no idea about that, as I’m an independent reader on this site. An earlier reader’s concern back at the start of the conversation about the reviewer’s “genre burn out” comment prompted me to agree with her, which is how I ended up in a larger debate.
I can’t speak for others, but I’m not bothered by the grade or even criticism of the book, or any book. There is no author out there above criticism as far as I’m concerned. The review of Chase had some interesting ideas (though the comment about “slobbering” seemed hyperbolic). But otherwise, yes, in your hypothetical scenario, the “burned out on historicals” could mean that your “C” for books that other less burned out reviewers would consider a B is a personal bias against historical romances and would render your reviews suspect for me. I’ve always been of the mind that books should be approached with an open mind as much as possible and judged on their own terms and merits, and that reviewers bear the burden of setting aside prejudices at the start of each book. There are plenty of genres I would want to excuse myself from reviewing for that reason, just as there are literary works I dislike teaching and try to avoid (or, work very hard to set aside my prejudice in fairness to students). Easier said than done!
@Sharon: there are a number of commenters on this thread who are not frequent contributors to the threads here. There’s nothing wrong with joining a discussion, but if it’s done only to explain how the reviewer or website are wrong because they have a different approach from yours, I wonder what the point is.
It’s not a bias to be a more discerning reader than I once was, and even if it were, Jennie acknowledged where she stood, so readers could decide to what extent her perspective was relevant to them. She approached this book with an open mind, and found it a mixed bag. Knowing that a reviewer is less positive than you means that you can take their grade with a grain of salt, knowing that you would likely grade higher. By the same token, some readers may find it more difficult to relate to very positive and enthusiastic reviews, knowing that the reviewer’s DIK may well be a B- or even lower for them.
So I really don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish with this argument. Should reviewers cater only to those who are new to the genre? Should they avoid any appearance of having personal preferences? This is not English class, so your experienced teaching really are besides the point. Reviewers are not impartial, and suggesting that they approach each book as some kind of blank slate is not realistic – nor would I consider it particularly desirable. As readers we gain from having different perspectives available to us to consider. Jennie offered hers here – you can explain why your take is different, but presenting her approach as somehow illegitimate is unfair and uncalled for.
@Rose – I wouldn’t know if the some of the commenters are new or not, as I don’t follow the threads that closely. In any case, I would think that a site would welcome all readers and responders as long as conversations remained civil. I thought most of the commenters had interesting insights, including the ones that disagreed with aspects of the review and including ones that have a different approach from this site. Clearly, this was a thread where multiple strands of thought differed from either the site or the reviewers at various times, and unlike you, I do see the point to expressing differences if for no other reason than articulating ideas is useful to reflection and critical thinking on an issue.
I think I have clarified many times what my position is, and I do think that being open-minded to all books in a variety of situations, including reviewing, reading, teaching, etc., are all relevant ways to approach fiction. I would not use the words “blank slate” because all of us bring our biases and ideologies to bear on texts, but the burden is on us as writers/reviewers/readers/teachers to approach texts with an open mind, which is different than “blank slate.” I tend to view it as accepting books on their own terms and proceeding from there, which is extremely challenging if one enters into the reading process “burnt out on the genre.” I disagree also that I presented the reviewer’s take as “illegitimate.” I disagreed with her approach and stated why; she disagreed with mine and stated why. I think we’ve agreed to disagree, which works for me.
@Sharon:
I don’t know how things are done at other book review blogs you visit, but here at DA, as well as at many of the other book blogs I read, the comments section is often used to expound on the review. If a commenter has a question or a concern that pertains to the book, this is the place to raise it. It is not often possible to say all there is to say about a book, or a reading experience, in the two or three pages that comprise a review, so we engage in further discussion, one where questions are often posed to the reviewers.
A frequent visitor to this site might have already known that Jennie’s burnout wasn’t severe enough to keep her from being able to love historical romances. A new or infrequent visitor such as yourself , quiet451, and LML, could politely ask whether or not it was that severe. Instead Jennie was told her review was “a waste of time” and it was insinuated that she had only chosen to read the book because she wanted to assign it a “bad grade.”
I’ll be honest and admit that since I knew emphatically that was not the case, it bothered me. I’m a little sorry that I waded into the discussion to disagree with Jean and LML. Normally I try to let such pointedly rude comments as Jean’s slide without engaging with them. I had no idea this would turn into a 170+ comments discussion and suck up my time to this extent. But since there was more than one new person asking these questions, I thought it might be a coordinated fangirl attack such as we sometimes see when an author’s fans cross over from a fan site to a more critical site in order to defend their favorite author from valid criticism. And I still feel that’s essentially what LML and Jean were doing.
@Sharon: I wanted to add this to my last comment. When I first discovered the internet in 1999, I posted online on a book discussion board. It was not a romance board, just a general reading discussion board. They discussed mostly literary fiction with a smattering of other genres.
The first time I posted there, I wasn’t familiar with their ways, and because of that, I was unintentionally disruptive. One of the posters there gave me good advice. He said that before posting at a site I haven’t joined before, I should lurk there for a while and see how things are done. In the years that have followed, I haven’t always followed this advice, but when I haven’t, I’ve usually regretted it.
My point is this. Just because the way things are done here may be different from the way they are done at other sites you visit, doesn’t mean the way they were done was wrong. Different people do things differently, and so do different review blogs, review sites and review publications. It is far better to observe for a little while, learn how things are done at a site you are new to, and respect that when you join the discussion than to insist that things be done the way you are used to.
@Jennie: “You’re choosing to see it as “DA reviewers vs. non-reviewers.”
It’s my opinion that you’re either misreading or misunderstanding my metaphor. I never made a “versus” statement. What I was getting at was that a few dissenters were responded to by so many reviewers, in some cases not entirely in a civil manner, which felt at times like the reviewers were banding together–maybe not intentionally–but that was the end result. Another way to see it is that for the few dissenters there were, the volume of reviewer response was especially notable.
Then you said: “The fact that your opinion is apparently the minority one doesn’t mean that you’re being ganged up on.”
“Ganged up” are your words not mine. My intention was to point out that I’ve never seen so many reviewers on one site repeatedly engage a few dissenters. FWIW, I don’t feel ganged up on, but I do now question the openness to discussion or dissension. To be fair, this could be a one off thread, but it could be unfortunate for newer viewers of this site.
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@Rose: “The insistence that all DA reviewers are engaging in some kind of circle the wagons groupthink – um, no. It’s hardly surprising that people with reviewing experience will want to weigh in when the discussion focuses on what reviews can/should communicate, and to share their thoughts and approach (for the record, I’m not a DA reviewer and haven’t been for some time).”
Some problems here. The circle the wagon analogy came late in the discussion, so using it to backtrack on the discussion doesn’t work, at least for me. As for readers thinking what a review should be? Surely this can’t be the first instance of that idea. But so many reviewers weighing in does seem new to me. Finally, when one says, I’m not a DA reviewer and haven’t been for some time)” still indicates a “leaning” shall we say? to a DA reviewer POV? I think so.
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@Sharon: You said a number of things that I think are right on the mark and very well said. The ones I particularly thought much to the point include….
“I was assessing the content of one review, which is the one under discussion here in this thread, not past reviews. A reviewer, like all writers, is responsible for the words she uses and is subject to critique, and so it is only the words used in the Chase review under discussion. …readers shouldn’t have to research a reviewer’s history….”
I too believe each review should stand on its own. Not dissimilar to each author’s book standing on its own. The second point is relative to attracting new readers to a site or being satisfied with those already “on board.”
“I’ve always been of the mind that books should be approached with an open mind as much as possible and judged on their own terms and merits, and that reviewers bear the burden of setting aside prejudices at the start of each book. There are plenty of genres I would want to excuse myself from reviewing for that reason, just as there are literary works I dislike teaching and try to avoid (or, work very hard to set aside my prejudice in fairness to students). Easier said than done!”
High five on this one! We all know–or should–that people have different points views, of course–but that doesn’t mean that an attempt at being objective or having an open mind as possible isn’t a worthy goal. Especially for reviewers in my own personal opinion since I don’t want to try to get to know all the online reviewers out there. I’m so glad you said this, Sharon. Good for you.
“…some of the words such as “sock puppet, outsider, disingenuous, concern troll” lodged against readers who are here because they are “engaging in fandom” was a little much on the civility scale, and much of this comes from DA reviewers too. Maybe this is just the culture of the Dear Author site.”
Yes. I read a number of sites’ reviews and discussions and have not seen so many different reviewers respond in these ways, especially for a single review. I think the various recent comments on food (perhaps meant as satire) can also come across as discourteous. When has lost interest in a thread, any thread, she usually stops posting. This also goes to the civility issue and its reflection on DA.
“As someone who reads reviews here regularly over the past few years but seldom comments on the threads, I was surprised that there was a banding together of reviewers, almost as if there is a party line and outsiders are not welcome to contest it.”
“I wouldn’t have written so much here, lol, except that I think nearly all of the DA reviewers have written to me based on my comments. ”
“As a fairly new poster here, it’s been fascinating to see the over-reaction to criticism.”
Thank you again, Sharon, Truly.
@Janet: Yay, found it on Amazon. Will definitely report :-).
@quiet451 and @Sharon:
It is very unusual here. The vast majority of our review discussion threads focus on the books. If people disagree with the grade given in a review, they usually give reasons for that in which they detail what it was they liked and appreciated about the book. That creates a thoughtful and illuminating discussion both for readers who loved the book and for those who didn’t love it, as well as for those who haven’t read it yet.
To focus on the reviewer instead of on the book and tell her she was wrong to review it, when she is a volunteer who contributes her time for the common good is not at all usual. Do you do this at book blogs or book sites where you participate regularly? If not, then why would you expect it of the regular participants here?
@quiet451: If only this were about “dissenting” views. The number of comments in this thread that actually engage the substance of the review is pathetically low. If we were actually discussing the review itself — and the book — this might have been a really interesting thread. What happened instead is a number of comments — some sock puppeting — questioned the integrity of a reviewer in the face of a thoughtful review (and whatever anyone thinks about C+ grades, I can tell you that I have given that grade to many books I still recommend and re-read). Which is why IMO a number of other DA reviewers waded in, especially when Jennie could not comment herself. And then there’s the general shit-stirring, which, hey, can be a fun pastime (especially when it’s not at what anyone might consider their “home” site), and it can certainly generate comments. I personally think it does even less than a C+ review to recommend a book or an author, but in the end I suspect that Chase fans will love whatever she writes, and others can use the pretty detailed review above to help them figure out if they want to give the book a shot.
@Sirius: Oh yes, please do! I usually make it with a combination of water and milk, and prefer the saucepan method to the microwave, but it’s good either way, especially when you dress it up with goodies.
@Janet/Robin: Yum! I already want to try it :-).
Ima gonna regret this, aren’t I?
Here are my two cents (or more like two bucks; opinions, I haz them):
Well, I’ll be blunt. Authors of books “owe” readers of books *nothing*, except to write the best books they can write.
Similarly, authors of reviews “owe” readers of reviews *nothing*, except to write the best reviews they can write.
Jennie wrote the best review she could of her experience of reading this book. Not of the author; not of the book as an abstract entity floating out somewhere in null-space; but of HER EXPERIENCE of reading the book.
And then, she did the readers of this review the enormous courtesy of noting some of the factors that shaped that experience. She mentioned tropes she liked and disliked; she noted themes and stylistic choices that pleased and displeased her.
And she added explicitly that the book might work differently for “someone who is not burned out on the genre the way that I am.” I include that qualifier “the way that I am” because it is important. What is that “way”?
Jennie makes it clear, repeatedly, in this review. It’s there again two sentences later: “a number of familiar tropes”.
NOT disliking the genre. NOT in finding it “substandard”. NOT in being somehow “biased against it”, or in any way anticipating giving a bad grade.
(NOT, I will add, in any of my particular burnout factors, such as a preponderance of Dukes, class snobbery, and anachronisms.)
How on earth is ANY reader — let alone a reviewer whom we should want to have wide knowledge and deep appreciation of the genre — supposed to have an “open mind” about being tired of tropes?
For heaven’s sake, that would be like a reviewer mention that they can’t get into a certain publisher’s books because they are tired of poor editing, and being scolded about having an “open mind” about standard punctuation and grammar!
Either sloppy editing bothers you or it doesn’t. Either cliched tropes bother you or they don’t.
As it happens, they DON’T bother me (can’t get too much of “bickering couples”), and I like very much about Chase the factors that Jennie praises (lo and behold, in this very same final paragraph!) such as “well-written, with sympathetic characters and a perfectly fine plot.”
I hated the first book in this series, and would probably have skipped this one had I not read this review, so I don’t think it’s done Chase any harm.
But even if Chase wrote in to say that I was wrong, and she saw her sales plummet; even if Jennie wrote in to say that I completely misunderstood her words; even if every single member of the DA team wrote in to tell me that I was off-base in my theory of reviewing; even if the reviewer then tried to defuse a somewhat acrimonious comment thread by talking about (yuck!) lima beans; even if a brand new visitor who had never visited this site before wrote in to say that I had some sort of status with or “leaning towards” this site (I don’t – I disagree with lots of things that have been done or posted here, and I HATE the site remodel), or that I was a big grumpypuss for verbally disagreeing with them (well, I *am* a pretty big grumpypuss); even if two hundred plus commenters wrote in to tell me that I was utterly wrong about why they read DA — I wouldn’t have held it against this review; or against the website; or against the other reviewers who chimed in on this thread to add their perspectives on the task of review. (And what a shock it is, to discover that many of them agree on the purpose and nature of reviews–obviously there’s a sinister conspiracy behind it!)
Because that’s not what an individual review, or reviewer, or team of reviewers is *for*. It’s not to validate my opinions. It’s not to do the hard work of critical thinking for me. It’s not even to “spur discussion”, although that can be a nice side benefit (and I have very much appreciated the spirited commentary about how people think grades, and reviews in general, work, although I obviously disagree with many of them.)
tl; dr:
A review is to recount, as honestly and accurately, one person’s experience of reading a particular book. No more; and no less.
That’s hard enough. That Jennie, in this case, did it so fairly and so eloquently, that so many people can compare it to their own similar experiences (and – even more amazing! – their own HYPOTHETICAL future experiences) is a grace and a gift.
Not a stick to beat her with.
@ Janine – I so agree with the importance of figuring out how a website works and what its culture is like before jumping in. It helps communicate more effectively with other posters and get one’s point across better.
@hapax: I think this was a mic drop :)
“Not a stick to beat her with.”
No one that I can recall wrote one single derogatory comment about the person named Jennie. What was questioned was the practice of reviewing a book that one admittedly had a limited chance of enjoying going in. The focus was on the action, the choice, the decision. Not the person as an individual or her worth as a human being. There’s a difference, you know. And there was a heated debate about what reviews could or should be–and are. On the other hand, people other than Jennie were indeed labeled with various nouns and epithets of different varieties that were not always kind to say the least. I come away from all this that maybe one is expected to agree with the crowd on DA.
” I so agree with the importance of figuring out how a website works and what its culture is like before jumping in.”
Just an observation FWIW. I’ve posted on other book sites as a newbie and have been welcomed, whether or not I agree with a particular thread, because they are apparently happy to have new people joining in and don’t seem to feel averse to differing opinions. Hearing that someone new on an open social media site should some acculturate themselves first, while an interesting idea in theory, reinforces the in-group sense one gets here.
@Janet/Robin: Forgot to ask, do you make regular buckwheat and if you do whether you can share interesting recipes. Usually what I do is just put butter and salt and eat it either by itself or as garnish or we sometimes cook it first, then fry some mushrooms and some onions and put in there. I don’t think I tried anything else. Oh, no, I also put it in the chicken broth, so it was basically buckwheat soup or added milk to the regularly cooked buckwheat.
@Janine: “A frequent visitor to this site might have already known that Jennie’s burnout wasn’t severe enough to keep her from being able to love historical romances. A new or infrequent visitor such as yourself , quiet451, and LML, could politely ask whether or not it was that severe.”
We could have asked, or we could have just done what we did, which is disagree with the approach. The problem with the history of a reviewer’s burnout and a readership/culture in the-know is that the review is too much about Jennie, whereas when I drop into sites to read reviews, I’m generally looking (hoping?) to read well-written reviews of an author’s work without having to speculate or research the reviewer, which I didn’t think happened in this particular case. So maybe just take my comments as those from an infrequent reader of the site and how they appear to the outside Internet world. Dear Author is a public site open to anyone, not just a group of people that have been here for the long term together.
@Janine: “To focus on the reviewer instead of on the book and tell her she was wrong to review it, when she is a volunteer who contributes her time for the common good is not at all usual. Do you do this at book blogs or book sites where you participate regularly? If not, then why would you expect it of the regular participants here? ”
I can’t speak for others, but I did not focus on the reviewer in any personal sense. I focused on the reviewer’s approach to reviewing a book, which rendered the entire review suspect for me. I was not the only one earlier in the thread to do so. Would I do that elsewhere? Most certainly, as it is an approach to literature, and that is always of interest to me.
@Sirius: I have baked with the flour and made the breakfast cereal, but otherwise have not used the groats. Tell me more about how you prepare it (I am especially interested with anything involving butter, mushrooms, and onions!).
@Sharon:
” I did not focus on the reviewer in any personal sense. ”
You know we can read your comments – all of them – right?
@quiet451:
” I come away from all this that maybe one is expected to agree with the crowd on DA.”
Oh bull. Arguing with each other is the local custom. But I’m getting tired of you and others harping on about this, about the alleged insults, and how *rude* everyone’s been to the newcomers. We have at two people commenting on this thread who are using other names other than the one they’re best known by – one is an author who reviews and writes under another name, and another, a newcomer, who is a regular at a very popular discussion board which she (and the others from that place) are curiously reluctant to mention. We have another person who has literally used sockpuppets to make it look like her views are more popular than they are, and one DA regular who seemed to have lost her mind when it comes to the extremely common practice of assigning a grade to a review, and turned it into wank about SAT scores.
Add that to the attempt to guilt Jennie over her review because it might hurt the author’s career (as if!), treating reviews as part of a marketing program (let me tell you, good reviewers hate that shit), and the repeated pursed lip lecturing of others for stating their objections to this nonsense while pretending to stand above the fray as a disinterested academic (because DA is so short of them in their review cadre and readers), then it’s hardly surprising that the people who know how DA works, and has always worked, are getting a bit short with people like you.
So stop being so disingenuous. If you plan to stick around, you’ll learn people here have no tolerance for the ‘who me?’ schtick. (And even less tolerance for liars and fakers and general shenanigans.) Otherwise, there’s that other very popular discussion board where you can talk to people more sympatico to your way of doing things.
Robin I never baked it – so cool. Okay I basically boil it in the water, whatever time it needs to be fully cooked . In the meantime chop onions and mushrooms ( I usually do one small box of regular white mushrooms – forgot it’s name and one onion, but dosage does not matter – all it means that you would feel the taste of onions and mushrooms in the buckwheat stronger or not. Then fry onions and mushrooms together – again on whatever oil you prefer and for whatever time you prefer ( I think I usually simmer it for forty – forty five min ), and mix it together with fully cooked buckwheat . If you just want to eat the buckwheat that’s when I add butter after it is boiled and done.
@hapax: “How on earth is ANY reader — let alone a reviewer whom we should want to have wide knowledge and deep appreciation of the genre — supposed to have an “open mind” about being tired of tropes? ”
Tropes are endemic though to genre writing, and so if anyone is burnt out on genre tropes, that can end up producing reviews focusing on the reviewer’s discontent rather than the merits of a book. I didn’t actually though find too much trope analysis in the review of Chase’s book, though the germ critique was interesting and a theme I’ve encountered in a number of other historicals. So again, my critique has been consistently that I prefer for reviews to discuss the book rather than themselves. Jennie’s review did that until the end, which ended up rendering everything that preceded it questionable, for me anyway. That’s the essence of my criticism.
@Sirius: Okay, I am going to get some groats and try it – will report back and let you know what I do with it. Thank you so much for your suggestions!!
@Sharon:
You characterized Jennie as “biased,” “sour,” and unable to enjoy the genre any longer. All that seems plenty personal to me. When Jennie, myself and others tried to correct your misimpression of her you insisted that neither our explanations, the facts we offered in evidence, nor Jennie’s own statement about her state of mind could be so, simply because your reading of the review was different than ours. An A- review written only two weeks ago didn’t count, because it wasn’t in the body of the above post but elsewhere on the site. When we were taken aback by this discounting of facts, we were accused of being unable to handle debate and dissent.
I have to say it’s this last that boggles my mind most of all. Let me try to explain why in an analogy, since nothing else has worked.
A man named Hugo reads a scientific article in Physical Review Letters. Hugo isn’t familiar with that journal. Along with his acquaintances, Walter and Hortense, people who are equally unfamiliar with Physical Review Letters, Hugo somehow comes away from the article believing that the earth must be flat.
Other readers of the Physical Review Journal read this article differently, because their interpretations of the words in the article are different, and in some cases also because they are familiar with the scientific journal and other articles published there which prove the earth is round.
Hugo, Walter and Hortense then decide to attend a meeting of the American Physical Society, though they are newbies there, and discuss the alarming flatness of the earth with the scientists in attendance.
At the meeting, Alfonse, a member of the American Physical Society, explains to Hugo and Hortense that the earth is, in fact, round, whether or not this was explicitly stated in the article they read, but Hugo and Hortense disagree.
Walter splits at the first sign of argument.
Alfonse offers evidence refuting the purported flatness of the earth, such as photographs taken from space. Hugo continues to insist the earth is flat, though there is even evidence of this throughout Physical Review Letters. Since this particular article didn’t prove it to Hugo’s satisfaction, it can’t be acknowledged as a true fact.
When more scientists as well as readers of Physical Review Letters all attempt to educate Hugo on the spherical nature of planet Earth, Hugo and Hortense tell them they are circling the wagons, and this must mean they are afraid of debate and dissent.
Alfonse tries to explain that the article in question didn’t explicitly mention the roundness of the earth because a basic knowledge of astronomy and physics was assumed of readers of the Physical Review Letters.
Hugo insists that the fact that the earth was round should not have to be assumed on the basis of information available elsewhere outside the article he read.
Alfonse then tells Hugo that perhaps Hugo should familiarize himself with more of the scientific articles published in Physical Review Letters before making such assumptions. A retired physicist, Collette, adds that this is valuable advice.
At this point Hortense states that this suggestion of acculturation reinforces the sense of in-group think one gets from reading Physical Review Letters and attending meetings of the American Physical Society.
I think I’m ready to graduate to quinoa and kale.
Kale, I loves it, especially in salads when it’s been massaged, or lightly steamed or sauteed with garlic. I don’t like it nearly as much boiled in soups, or eaten raw with no massaging.
Quinoa is hard for me to get used to. Whenever I eat it I wish it were rice. I also hate having to wash it.
@Sharon: ” She may well be able to evaluate the genre more fairly than she’s been able to articulate in the current review, and if so, that’s wonderful.”
Sheesh, you are passive aggressive. I can’t tell if you think you’re fooling anyone by claiming not to be personal while throwing little digs out, or if your maturity level is honestly such that you feel good about being catty while disingenuously claiming that you’re not being catty.
Robin I hope what you end up making will be to your liking. It is funny now I think about it – buckwheat was one of the things we used to eat quite often growing up – probably because it was cheap, I don’t remember hearing about health benefits. We were not hungry or anything, but my teenage years were while Ukraine was still part of the Soviet Union and lots of foods were not available easily for general population, buckwheat always was. Anyway , what I am saying is that I should have been tired of it by now. I am not though – we are not making it as often but we are making it often enough.
Janine when you say kale being massaged, what do you mean by that? I ask because I tried it several times as base for lunch time salads at work ( those you buy – you give them base and they toss in ingredients you want), and was not too impressed and went back to my favorite base – spinach. But I know how good it is supposed to be, so maybe if I buy it for home salads and massage it I will like it better?
I do like quinoa but I literally only got introduced to it three or four years ago by a friend – before I did not know of it existance lol.
Hey guys does anybody have good recipes for favorite grains? Always appreciate my eating horizons being expanded.
@Sirius: Have you tried Japanese buckwheat noodles? You can eat them cold or hot, and I find them delightfully al dente. The Japanese are very keen on buckwheat’s health benefits too.
Also, you don’t have to eat kale if you don’t like it. All the brassicas are pretty good for you, though too much of them raw can give you iodine deficiency. I hear cauliflower is the next big thing, and it’s a lot more versatile and edible.
@Sirius:
“Hey guys does anybody have good recipes for favorite grains?”
Porridge made on steel cut oats is very nice (we ate it on our recent cruise), and you can eat them uncooked with muesli too. I don’t do recipes, sorry :)
@Ann Somerville: OOO have not tried Japanese buckwheat noodles, will look for it. Thank you.
And somebody suggested today steel cut oatmeal (I do eat the regular one, but have not tried steel cut yet), so thanks again.
@Sirius: I’ve never made massaged kale at home, only had it at restaurants. There’s a vegan fast casual restaurant chain called Veggie Grill that makes this tasty salad called All Hail Kale. I usually get it without any additional dressing because some of the dressing is already in the kale itself. I think the kale is either massaged with it or marinated in it, or maybe both.
To try to answer your question, I just checked a salad cookbook that I really like, Salad Samurai by Terry Hope Romero, and she has a recipe for Relaxed Shredded Kale. Depending on the type of kale it is, the kale is either ripped by hand or sliced (chiffonade style), and then she combines it in a mixing bowl with a little olive oil, vinegar and salt. She says to “Massage for 1 or 2 minutes until the kale is soft and shiny.”
Thank you Janine.
@Sirius: I’m really excited about making it. I’ve actually been trying to minimize the traditional grains I eat, because they can be inflammatory. One of the reasons I love buckwheat is that it’s really not a grain, but a seed (like quinoa, amaranth, and others). So it has the properties of a grain when you cook it, but without the inflammatory properties (I have very severe arthritis, so this is a concern for me).
Re your call for recommended recipes, I have to tell you that I love this cookbook on ancient grains: http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Grains-Modern-Meals-Mediterranean/dp/1580083544
Also, the site I linked to earlier has a lot of grain recipes: http://www.101cookbooks.com/whole_grain_recipes/
Epicurious has a whole grain section of recipes, too: http://www.epicurious.com/archive/healthy/nutritiousdishes/grains
My current favorite baking flour is Einkorn, and there are some great recipes here: https://jovialfoods.com/recipes/ (it’s like the first, un-hybridized wheat and can even be tolerated by people who don’t do well on wheat)
You can also cook with Teff, Amaranth, bulgar barley, millet, and, as Ann Somerville said, Japanese Soba noodles. My only caution with those is to check the ingredients, because they’re not all made exclusively with buckwheat. If you’re sensitive to wheat or gluten, for example, you will want to avoid the brands that use wheat flour.
Oh, and if you want to try something really funky, go for chia seeds: it’s like a cross between tapioca and poppy seeds. It become gelatinous with liquid, but has a lot of protein and other nutrients. You can buy it from Whole Foods-ish stores or, again, order from Amazon. I LOVE the stuff (and it’s great baked into quick breads, too): http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/giada-de-laurentiis/chia-seed-pudding.html.
@Sirius: Do you like farro? I find that to be very versatile; it works well as a replacement for pasta in a pasta-style salad. Like, I’ve made farro with kalamata olives, red onion, feta cheese, parsley and a balsamic-olive oil dressing. It’s very good!
@Ann Somerville: Cauliflower is one of the few veggies I don’t like (the other main one is beets; they taste like dirt to me). I feel like I need to give it another try, though; I’ll admit I haven’t had it in a long while, and my opinion has long been colored by the smell of the cauliflower soup my mother used to cook when I was growing up.
@Sirius: I had Japanese buckwheat noodles (soba) when I was in Japan. My Japanese brother-in-law made a simple dressing for them from toasted sesame oil and shoyu. There may have been one or two other ingredients in there but if so I can’t remember what. I should ask my sister-in-law. But they were good that way.
@Jennie:
“Sheesh, you are passive aggressive. I can’t tell if you think you’re fooling anyone by claiming not to be personal while throwing little digs out, or if your maturity level is honestly such that you feel good about being catty while disingenuously claiming that you’re not being catty. ”
It is not “passive aggressive” to say that I did not believe you articulated fairness in your most recent review. I’ve stated that opinion a number of times as clearly as I possibly can. On the other hand, it is also not “passive aggressive” to state that I genuinely agree with the Janine’s statement that if you are reviewing other historical romances fairly, that is a good thing, because it is, for all readers and the process in general. I do actually still like to log in to this site and read reviews and I love reading reviews in general. My ideas derive from genuine beliefs about what it means to review a literary work. I feel though as if DA reviewers and regulars here question motives of those criticizing the review itself, and search for intrinsic bad faith. In any case, my ideas are sincere and meant to be taken at face value.
@Janine: “You characterized Jennie as “biased,” “sour,” and unable to enjoy the genre any longer. All that seems plenty personal to me.”
Not what I said. I said the *words* she used in her review express bias and a sourness against an entire genre. An ad hominem argument (logical fallacy) attacks people and usually as a way to divert a genuine discussion of ideas to an attack against someone. Donald Trump springs to mind as a chronic perpetrator, and you and others might note how he frequently and quickly attacks a person (their face, their morals, their temperament, etc.) rather than stay on target and deal with the issues. Ad hominem arguments pervade our society and are literally everywhere. But it is important to understand the difference, and I think people struggle to determine this and view any argument against content and ideas as a personal attack against them. I have no interest whatsoever in attacking anyone here, engaging in name-calling or speculating about anyone’s possible motives. I am reading words and assessing words and arguments people made, and the words used in the review call forth to my mind a sourness and bias against a genre, or in the reviewer’s own words, “burn out.” My words address only the criteria Jennie presented in her review. I do not care about any of the rest of it and will not engage in that type of discourse.
@Sharon:
“In any case, my ideas are sincere and meant to be taken at face value.”
Christ, shut up, will you, Sharon? You’re just tedious now, and convincing no one but your chums back at AAR. You keep saying the same things over and over and over and over….
Booooooring!
@Janine:
“I had Japanese buckwheat noodles (soba) when I was in Japan. ”
Me too! Did you drink the broth they were cooked in too? That’s considered healthful. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I loved the soba we had, and the broth was good too.
I really have nothing to say about the rudeness and readers/reviewers can decide for themselves how they feel about that kind of language on this site. **However, I was kind of curious about the “AAR” comment because I’ve seen it here before and I’ve seen references to Dear Author mentioned on threads on the AAR site too. I’ve read references on Smart Bitches too with comments about other sites as well. I have the feeling that there is tension among some on different romance websites, almost like rival gangs, which strikes me as funny in way. I guess I just tended to think that many readers, myself included, generally bounce around among many sites without being necessarily loyal to one or the other. Or maybe DA readers here feel that other romance readers travel around as a pack :)
Can we stop with the comments about how one site is better than another. It’s different. That’s all. This whole
Conversation has devolved away from the book into petty name calling. So either everyone shapes up or I close the thread.
Robin that’s right I forgot that my friend who has celiac disease and has to have completely gluten free diet mentioned to me that buckwheat is not a grain. I did not know that quinoa is not one either though so thank you.
Jennie I never tried faro and don’t know what it is, will look it up. Unfortunately I don’t particularly care for raw cauliflower either ( I suspect that kale will win between two if I were to compare taste :)). However sometimes ( not often because once again fried), I boil it for few min, then break the head into pieces , flour, egg and on the frying pan it goes. I like it but probably not much nutritional value left.
Ann Somerville and Janine – I found buckwheat noodles on Amazon but decided going to try it in Japanese restaurant first .
Thank you guys!
I’ve been thinking about this thread and trying to figure out why it’s been so (uncharacteristically) acrimonious. Here’s my analysis, fwiw.
There were two catalysts. Some readers were upset / taken aback by Jennie’s statement about being burned out on certain tropes in historical romance and thought it lessened the value of her review. Other readers were upset / taken aback by Jean’s initial comment about it and thought the comment was rude. (I’m paraphrasing and making generalizations here – apologies if I mischaracterized anyone’s comments).
In hindsight, I think some of the acrimony could have been avoided if more participants had been able to give each other the benefit of the doubt in their responses. But it’s very hard to give someone the benefit of doubt when your dander’s up.
So that’s my learned analysis – 2 things happened early on that upset a lot of commenters in a way that they felt insulted and on the defensive, and it went downhill from there.
For the commenters who are newer to DA, I’m sorry you’ve had a bad experience here and I hope you’ll come back and participate in other threads. This is rare for DA – we do have the occasional acrimonious thread, but they’re usually over bigger topics like rape or racism in romance (not always – I can think of a couple, pre comment policy threads that devolved like this one over silly things, but those are very, very rare).
@Sirius — I’m not much on the “newer” older grains, but I do love steel-cut oatmeal. It takes forever to prepare from scratch, but if you boil it just a few minutes the night before, then store it (in the pan) overnight in the refrigerator, it cooks very nicely and quickly. I like it with buttermilk and a pinch of raw sugar.
I also occasionally stir it uncooked into plain Greek yoghurt with a bit of honey. A nice summer breakfast, especially if I have some fresh fruit along with it.
(And I’m really not as disgustingly healthy as that sounds; my other favorite breakfast is a cheese Danish, so it really is tasty)
@Ann Somerville: I think my brother-in-law made soba without broth. I’ve emailed my sister-in-law for the recipe and will post here if I get it.
@cleo: I agree it was the early comments that set the tone for the rest of the thread. Sometimes that happens. I did try to give the benefit of the doubt initially, despite the early accusation that Jennie decided to read and review the book so that she could assign it a bad grade, rather than because she thought she might enjoy it. That did seem rude to me, but I tried to put that aside. Alas, I’m only human, and as the argument went on, it’s been hard to stay patient.
@Everyone: I have to step away from this discussion and from other DA discussions for at least the next few days for reasons that have nothing to do with this conversation. Something has come up IRL that demands a lot of my attention. But if I get the recipe for the soba my brother-in-law made us when we were in Japan, I’ll try to pop in to post it.
@Sirius: Quinoa, buckwheat, and amaranth are all seeds. I don’t have a gluten intolerance (to my knowledge), but I find that grains in general can aggravate my arthritis, so I am trying to minimize them in my diet, and to steer clear of processed wheat. I’m currently experimenting with fermentation, which is the new “big thing” (even though it’s really an old thing, lol) in both bread and vegetables. Which reminds me that I need to feed my neglected sourdough starter.
Also, if you want to experiment with grains that require long cooking times (like steel cut oats), I HIGHLY recommend this: http://instantpot.com. It makes steel cut oats in like 10 minutes and can cook a whole chicken in 15 minutes. It even makes the most yummy yogurt and can produce amazing, fall-off-the-bone short ribs in 35 minutes. I got mine from Amazon and they often run specials on it (around Thanksgiving it was like half price).
@cleo: “There were two catalysts. Some readers were upset / taken aback by Jennie’s statement about being burned out on certain tropes in historical romance and thought it lessened the value of her review. Other readers were upset / taken aback by Jean’s initial comment about it and thought the comment was rude. (I’m paraphrasing and making generalizations here – apologies if I mischaracterized anyone’s comments).”
I think this is accurate. I definitely fell into the first in that I disagreed with Jennie’s burnout statement as a review criteria, but I tried to use reasoning in our exchanges. Since though I’ve been surprised at the vitriol and that it’s permitted at all. I have no idea if DA has a netiquette policy, but it should. Anyway, thanks to those who responded here. It’s been an interesting forum!
@Janet:
Will check the pot out thanks.
Hapax, my next oatmeal purchase would be steel cuts , we shall see what I think, thank you :).
@Janet:
“Also, if you want to experiment with grains that require long cooking times (like steel cut oats), I HIGHLY recommend this: http://instantpot.com. ”
A good pressure cooker is absolutely essential in a kitchen, to my mind. Chicken cooked in one can be so beautifully tender,
Hapax I forgot to ask, when I boil the steel cut oats night before do I put them in the fridge overnight in the same water or do I drain it? Rhanks !
@Ann Somerville: What’s great about the IP is that it’s a pressure cooker, a slow cooker/crock pot, a yogurt maker, a rice cooker, and you can sauté in the stainless steel insert, too. Oh, and you can even make an entire cheesecake in the thing! It even has a “porridge” setting, although we generally don’t use it for oats, lol.
@Sirius: Same water.
@Janet — Oh, that looks nifty! Right now I have books in my budget under “Entertainment” and kitchen gadgets under “Household Necessities”; I’m giving serious thought to switching categories. :-)
@Janet:
Unfortunately the IP isn’t available here, but there are local clones which claim the same functionality. I nearly bought one this morning using my airline loyalty points (because I will never fly with that airline again ;) ) but the reviews on reliablity brought me up short. It’s still high summer here, so not really stew/soup making season, but I will keep my eye out for specials. I had no idea such devices existed, so thanks for letting us know! I nearly bought a crockpot a couple of days ago, so I’m so pleased I didn’t. A multicooker is much more what I need.
@Ann Somerville: I have one of these. I love it. Use it all the time during winter especially. http://www.kitchenwaredirect.com.au/New-Wave-The-5-in-1-Multi-Cooker-6L You can get a 6-in-1 version also.
@Kaetrin:
that’s an excellent price! Thanks for the rec.
@hapax: A number of us share recipes on Twitter, so if you get one, let me know. It also makes AWESOME bone broth in two hours.
@Ann Somerville: You will love it. I got mine on a whim and it’s easily the most used appliance in my kitchen next to my Nespresso machine (that is the #1 most important kitchen appliance!)
Thanks Hapax , bought the oats today will try soon – when regular one is finished and it almost is .
@Sirius: I got my buckwheat groats today, and I think this: http://natashaskitchen.com/2015/02/15/how-to-cook-buckwheat-kasha/, plus this: http://natashaskitchen.com/2015/02/18/easy-mushroom-gravy-recipe/ will be the first dish I try. This pudding looks awfully good, too: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/buckwheat-pudding-recipe.html.
Buckwheat kasha is exactly that – how we used to cook it most often . Yeah pudding looks good too.
@Sirius: I got the raw groats, so I could toast or not, depending on my preference and the recipe. I will let you know how it turns out (I probably won’t get around to cooking it until next week).
@Sirius: I’m also thinking that it would make a good filling for stuffed cabbage rolls (I make the sweet and sour rolls – YUM).
Robin we always get them toasted :), so I am curious how the raw would taste. Stuffed cabbage rolls we make with meat, used to with pork now with chicken, but with lessened amount of meat that I consume , this sounds like an excellent idea. Thank you.
@Sirius: Yes, I use meat + rice, and I think the toasted buckwheat could substitute for either or both. It’s a complete protein, too, I think.
Popping in to share my brother-in-law’s soba recipe: Make kombu dashi , and add sake, shoyu and mirin to taste. You can put ground sesame seeds, and/or ginger, and green onions in the sauce. If you make hot soba you can put fried tofu (age), etc on it or nori.
Thanks Janine! I don’t know what shoyu and mirin are – but am going to ask for this in the restaurant next time I am there ( in the Japanese restaurant I mean). Appreciate you coming back and letting us know .
Sirius, Shoyu is soy sauce and Mirin is sweet rice (cooking) wine.
Thank you!