Jessica @29: “Porn by definition has no other value: artistic, literary, social.” Wow, you need to see some of the visually beautiful porn I watch. :D That’s why it’s GOOD porn. And b/c it’s thoughtful about the sexuality and the sex it shows.

If it has aesthetic merit, it’s not porn. It’s erotica. ;)

If folks want to say that beautifully presented material with plot and characters and narrative (literary merit) is porn, then we need to admit that the terms “erotica” and “porn” are synonyms. I am guessing that a lot of erotica writers and filmmakers would have problems with that, but maybe not.

And when it comes to concerns about hotter pornesque stories causing addiction? It’s not the fault of the writer, the editor or the publishing house. That’s like saying Captain Morgan is responsible for alcoholism. It just happens with certain people, and it’s certainly no reason for writers to throttle back their stories.

Can I first say: North Carolina is BLUE!!! Woohoo!

Now, on to comments.

MD @5: I’d have to say that I actually disagree with most of what you say on a broader scale. I love me some hott! sexx0ring in my romances, as long as it progresses the plot and/or character development. I’m not averse, for example, to reading a DAP scene….as long as it’s difficulty and momentousness is part of the lead-up to and discussion of the scene. So, basically, what Jules said @9.

CatGrant @16: FWIW, it wasn’t like that at all. No questionable consent, no force.

Miki @18: The book that I’ve read that managed to make a single kiss more erotic than almost anything I’ve ever read is Matthew Haldeman-Time’s Off the Record. Absolutely incredible. Virgin hero and rakish hero, although set in contemporary LA. Sooo good. And yet definitely still erotic romance.

Evangeline and Karen: First, I’m sorry, but I don’t have a problem with porn. No problem whatsoever. Got my own favorite porn sites, got my own favorite stroke fiction. Well done porn is just as much part of my life as well done romance. On the other hand, in defense of this book, it was pretty much pure romance up until this scene. Yes, hot sex, but all appropriate to the characters and their emotional development. And I guess that’s the difference for me. Even books that are ALL sex (Laurell K. Hamilton, anyone?) are fine by me if they’re about character development (which is why I stuck so long with LKH–because I thought character development was front and center for longer than other people did). In fact, even the best stroke fiction has some sort of development, even if it’s mostly “porn.” Um, so, I guess, what GrowlyCub said @24.

RfP @26: “hottification” LOLOL!!!

Jessica @29: “Porn by definition has no other value: artistic, literary, social.” Wow, you need to see some of the visually beautiful porn I watch. :D That’s why it’s GOOD porn. And b/c it’s thoughtful about the sexuality and the sex it shows.

I guess I didn’t write this to say we need less sex in our romance. Not at all. I’m just advocating for sex that makes sense, that is commensurate with the overall atmosphere of the story, and that is dealt with realistically.

I’ve tried and tried to write erotic romance because I want to make the big bucks, too. And I find while I can write more and more explicit m/f sex, I can’t write a good, much less great, story that’s all about a character’s sexual journey.

I’ve got to have my murders or stalkings or kidnappings or the writing just isn’t fun. As much work as writing is, it has to be fun, too. My more explicit romantic suspenses have done well, but not great. My one mystery/suspense with romantic elements only (ie. no love scenes) has done poorly in sales at an e-publisher known for its “red hots”. Of course, that’s my favorite of all the books I’ve had published.

Otherwise, it is just porn for the reader, and it can become an addiction.

Okay, it’s taken me a little while to articulate my thoughts here.

Porn can definitely become an addiction-for somebody who has an addictive personality, and for somebody who most likely has underlying issues any way.

Pushing boundaries for somebody with that makeup can pose a danger, but a person with that makeup is going to have issues period, until the underlying cause is resolved.

But for the typical reader, reading books with varying levels of kink isn’t going to become an issue of that magnitude. Either the reader likes it, wants to explore more, or they don’t.

Unless the reader is spending massive (and I do mean massive, obscene, scary) amounts of money trying to ‘feed their need’, unless they are focusing on getting more and more of the extreme sex and ignoring other things in their lives-namely marriages, kids, jobs…food… it’s not going to be an issue.

And somehow I don’t think erotic romance is going to cater to a great deal of people who are just seeking some kind of sex fix. People needing a fix want it quick, and they want it now. They want instant gratification and they don’t necessarily want to read a romance, erotic or otherwise, to get what they need. Reading requires a certain amount of concentration and most people needing a fix of any kind aren’t exactly big on concentration. So I’d imagine if they need that sort of fix, they’ll go straight to hard core porn.

My opinion only, yadda, yadda, yadda…yours may vary.

generally WE do not admit WE read romance for the sex

You might. I don’t. In fact, I’ve skipped all the sex scenes in the last twenty books I’ve read…with the exception of Harlequin Presents titles. (*shrug* I think I’m going through a phase right now.)

WE do not want to be aware that pushing more and more boundaries is unhealthy

Wow! Is the medical community aware of this disease? Should I get help for including explicit sex scenes in my stories?

Once again…the point is lost in the midst of someone accusing any person who posits an opposing opinion to be a “moralist” or a “prude.”
The point is exactly what a few other people have said: the lines are being blurred between erotic romance and erotica and porn, yet it’s rarely admitted, (this is my further response:) because generally WE do not admit WE read romance for the sex. As such, WE do not want to be aware that pushing more and more boundaries is unhealthy because WE are not aware. That’s all I ask: own up to it and be aware, and just as everyone says to practice safe sex, practice safe reading. Otherwise, it is just porn for the reader, and it can become an addiction.

This isn’t you being a “prude”, it’s you telling us lowly mortals that porn is an addictive hazard that will give us some kind of literary equivalent of STD. Which is something I’ve never heard of, really, unless a healthy slice of the male population with access to Playboy, Penthouse, and the like have been wiped out while my back was turned.

If you don’t like erotic romance, fine, just stay away from them. The book mentioned here has a “Red Hot!” tag, which tells you that the sex scenes are going to be pushing the limit. That is my point, which you deliberately ignored in your response to my post – you can easily avoid those OMG tainted porn books if you choose. There is still a big amount of variety in the genre, covering all spectrums from inspirational to erotic. No need to stand on the pulpit and scream that too much sex is creeping into the genre and destroying our fragile psyche.

Now if a gay male triad showed up in a Debbie Macomber book… And if they successfully executed DAP…

You make me want to move to North Carolina and troll the streets with a hot guy by my side just to flush you out. I’d love to shake your hand!

I’m reminded of customers in an ice cream shop sampling flavors. There’s lots of tiny spoons piling up around here of late. And it’s all good. But I predict that escalating kink is not going to be a long term trend. Readers who are currently buying for novelty’s sake will become jaded and begin to demand quality stories and some degree of realism in their kink. And some will decide that vanilla really is their favorite flavor, after all.

Quite the alarmist! Reminds me of the earnest yet hilarious warnings about the demon weed in those Reefer Madness type movies.

pushing more and more boundaries is unhealthy because WE are not aware. That’s all I ask: own up to it and be aware, and just as everyone says to practice safe sex, practice safe reading. Otherwise, it is just porn for the reader, and it can become an addiction.

I have a few disagreements with this line of argument.

(a) It sounds like you equate “porn” with both “extreme” and “dangerous”.

(b) It sounds like you equate “erotic” with “porn”. Have you watched or read porn? It’s mostly very dull. Having a storyline (beyond “Hotel guest, pool boy, unh unh unh”), let alone any emotional involvement, would be quite an innovation. The idea of reading erotic romance as porn addiction is predicated on the similarity of the two forms. For the most part, hey’re not that close.

(c) Although romance and porn may not be written to fulfill each other’s purposes, a reader can read either one as the other. When I was 14 and loved to re-read one scene with a (very tame) kiss, was I using that romance as porn? Perhaps. That doesn’t denigrate the romance. Or me, the consumer of porn.

(d) The language of “unhealthy”, “safe”, “be aware”, “porn”, and “addiction” implies that reading something beyond our comfort level will somehow change our fundamental natures in frightening ways. Do you subscribe to the idea that romance as a whole is an addictive, unhealthful genre that builds up unrealistic expectations and takes over women’s lives? Or, my paraphrase, romance makes you a sick fuck?

(e) You say blurring the lines between porn and romance is bad for romance. How so? Because porn is bad and we must defend romance from the charge that it’s porn? Some thrillers and some fantasy novels have pornographic elements. Are those elements bad for those genres? Yes, if those elements represent an unreflected genre perspective or convention, or if they detract from the quality of the characterization and plotting. Same goes for romance. Sexual content is not in itself bad for romance. It becomes bad for romance when it’s part of a pattern of bad writing, or unreflectedly purveying caricatures and stereotypes and regrettable attitudes toward men and women.

I’ve been reading erotica for eons and my love for the ’same old’ endures. That said, I do understand pushing the envelope, otherwise the first erotic books would never have been written.

Also, the progression of explicit work might be due in part, to the emerging generation. There has always been a need to cross boundaries when coming-of-age, testing the restrictions and beliefs of the current society. When a populace is quite tightly laced, there will be extremes to counter those sexual attitudes. It seems this began in America in the sixties and still continues.

You usually know when you are going to get an erotic romance.

The key word is “usually”, as there are extreme variations of erotic romance and misleading policies of some retailers. A romance book with some sex will be categorized as erotic instead of romance at Fictionwise. The result is readers wanting a scorching hot tale will be disappointed and seekers of romance likely won’t find it. Jane sums it up rather well:

But I do think that all publishers, NY and epublishers alike, are blurring the lines between romance, erotic romance, and porn which is ultimately bad for romance…