Each of my books have been released in print at that other pub but only seven of my EC/CP books have been put into print…and those weren’t even the ones that have sold the best electronically. I make good money with the other publisher’s print books and that pub doesn’t have contracts with Amazon or ANY brick and mortar stores. Sales are strictly from the publisher’s website.

Juliana Stone they have a first refusal clause…it’s there….I wanted it removed, but they wouldn’t…they tried to reword it, but I was not going to sign a contract with any type of clause like that. They also wouldn’t budge on the rights clause…I thought I was being more than generous in asking for a max of 10 years, but they refused and said they wanted lifetime rights

Juliana Stone I had an agent and a lawyer look over the contract. I know what I was signing

Anon I clearly stated that IF an author didn’t sign because they thought they’d never get their rights back, or IF they didn’t sign because they thought EC would have rights to every book they ever wrote, THEN they were stupid. I stand by that, because it’s very clear per the contract that neither of those things are true. You claim you did have a lawyer explain the contract to you, so I’m assuming you DID know neither of those things were true, hence I was not talking about YOU when making my statement.

Seems they did advise her to not sign the Ellora’s Cave contract without negotiation on those specific clauses because they interfered with her New York Publisher’s contract.

At least that is my understanding. Your mileage may very.

I’m not putting down either publisher, the quality of the writers, the editors or the products they release, but I think some of the changes made by EC in the past few years *have* had a huge negative impact on sales. So much so that if an author bases her submissions choices on potential income alone, EC certainly shouldn’t be placed far and above other epublishers like it used to be.

I think you are very much aware I was talking in reference to the matter of signing contracts using loosely defined terms like “lifetime” which I would equate to ME drinking that Koolaid.

I like those standard 5 or 7 year contract terms I have seen. They make more sense for me.

And while you don’t like being called stupid, which no one did by the way, we don’t like being equated to koolaid drinking (if anyone doesn’t get the reference google Jonestown and see why it’s so very insulting), brainwashed fools, which we were.

I think I actually did mention that.

My god, Teddy, now you’re just blatantly ignoring information because you want EC to be the big bad wolf. You and others have been told that there ARE ‘clearly defined’ end dates to both the lifetime rights clause and the option clause. The lifetime rights clause says EXACTLY what circumstances qualify the book to be considered out of print and allows the author to ask for rights back with, as Anion said, a simple email. And it’s not a crazy list of circumstances either. You can’t ask for it back for a year and a half after it releases. It has to be under a certain number of sales per month. And then all you have to do is send them an email and the book is yours to do with what you will.

And that kool-aid drinking remark was just low. You go ahead and be impressed with people who turn down a contract because they didn’t like a clause. But it’s less impressive for people to sign a contract that is perfectly sane in its clauses? We’re brainwashed and stupid, because we actually READ the damn contract and realized that those clauses everyone freaks the hell out about aren’t what the naysayers said they were? If they didn’t like the clause because they thought they’d never get their rights back, then they didn’t read the thing and certainly didn’t have a lawyer explain it to them. If they didn’t sign because they thought EC would get grabby and lay claim to every book they wrote from then on, they again didn’t read the damn contract properly. That’s THEM being stupid, imo. Because one should always understand the contract one is signing (or not signing in this case).

Anion,

I personally am impressed with people like Juliana Stone who are willing to walk away from even a top ePub when contract negotiations of clauses that they find unacceptable fall through and provide that information publicly as an example.

I was talking about this whole matter strictly from my knowledge of contracts from other top ePubs and my personal reaction and decisions on such things.

Not about what decisions you have made for yourself. Those are yours to make, based on your situation which I have no knowledge of, and not my place to judge. So I apologize for offending you.

I don’t know you and my comment had nothing to do with you. I was giving my personal opinion of the matter being discussed.

And you have heard from several EC authors who were able to negotiate the option clause. Yes, apparently some were not. I don’t understand it myself, and it distresses me to hear it.

Just like it distresses me to hear of other epublishers who limit their authors to one or two releases a year; for me that is a much more serious issue, but I don’t behave as though the authors who accept that are deserving of contempt.

But that is just non-koolaid drinking, self loving me.

Right, as opposed to koolaid-drinking, self-hating me. You know, I have not once in this entire conversation implied that you are an idiot, or brainwashed, or anything of that nature. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly done so to me and the other EC authors posting here. Nice.

As I have said before… Whatever is a priority to you defines how limiting that or any other clause is.

Most ePublishers will also negotiate on a clause like that or remove it if it is even in their boilerplate contract. If first refusal rights and those lifetime clauses do not bother you then sign away.

Personally I value my time and effort and don’t want Ellora’s Cave involved in my business that much. Nor do I want to ever be in an unmanageable position where I have no “clearly defined” end dates on my contracts.

But that is just non-koolaid drinking, self loving me.

Either way, NY house or not, an option clause is not an iron-clad contract. You do not have to accept the offer on the next work.

They are an ePublisher and those clauses might be appropriate for someone giving you money up front for that book deal but they are in no way standard for the eBook industry.

And again, Teddy, are you talking about the length of term or the option clause? I’m very confused by your statements about both of those clauses here, to be honest. If I didn’t know better I’d think you thought the option clause was in place for a lifetime as well, and not just for one more submission–you hand in the book, they offer, you say no, you’re done (as Emily has confirmed above). No further works of yours are under option. It’s totally different from the term of rights granted for the book you signed the contract for.

I haven’t seen contracts from any of the others, but I find the idea that EC is the only epublisher with an option clause to be frankly astounding. I can assure you, Teddy, option clauses are standard in NY publishing; read some agent blogs, you’ll see them discussing option clauses, and discussing them as something they see every day, not something totally unusual.

It’s not hard to turn down an offer, ffs. If a man you disliked asked you to marry him, would you feel obligated to accept just because he asked you? Just say no. When your sales drop below a certain level or a certain length of time has passed, just send an email asking about getting your rights back. It’s very simple. It may not be ideal for everyone, but it’s not like you need to send any certified letters to anyone or appear in court or anything. You just send a damn email. And it’s not like this whole time they’re keeping your work in print you’re not still getting paid. You are. No, I don’t think lifetime rights is a great thing but it’s not theft either.

ETA because I left out a word.

Ann, you don’t sign contracts like that from Ellora’s Cave either as you just told us.

Um, if you’d read any of the books I have published with Samhain, you’d realize how that possible interpretation of my words would have been the very last thing to occur to me. Hell, there’s sex on the first page of my second book, as well as liberal use of all three four-letter words that start with “c”. And that wasn’t part of any compromise–it’s exactly the way I want it, despite the fact that Samhain publishes sweet and sensual romance as well as erotic.

I am sorry if I offended you–please believe it was entirely unintentional. But honestly, as an author, my first concern in situations like this is with authors and how they are treated by companies and by the industry as a whole. I don’t think it’s out of line to discuss what some publishers ask authors to give up in return for the opportunities they offer.