I read on Emily Veinglory’s blog today that there was a rumor that Ellora’s Cave is offering to serve as a distributor/etailer for other ePublishers. According to Patty Marks, CEO of Ellora’s Cave:
This is a potential business venture being considered by Jasmine- Jade Enterprises. When there are details to announce, we’ll do so. The hosting of other publishers’ titles would be non-exclusive – those publishers would continue to sell their books through their own website and any other channels they want (such as All Romance eBooks or Fictionwise, for example).
This is mostly a win for EC. It takes advantage of its existing readership and the brand it’s built up since 2001. It gets a royalty of 40%. At that rate it’s possible that this royalty, since it’s pure profit, is more than what EC makes from selling one of its own books.
Possible downsides for EC is that there are some epublishers with poor editing and/or poor covers. There is some danger of EC’s own brand being diluted by the product of other epublishers. In weighing the difference, though, it seems like it’s a good risk for EC.
For readers, this can be a good thing because there is a more centralized location for purchasing ebooks as long as readers remember that these are not EC books but books from other publishers (which can be both a plus and a minus for readers). EC allows for payment via Paypal which I like.
As an EC author, however, now you are competing not only against your fellow EC authors but also with other authors. I’ve heard that EC authors are unhappy about this. EC ebooks are not sold through any other online merchant such as Fictionwise, BooksonBoard, All Romance eBooks or even Kindle. I would gather that part of the reason you sign on to EC is to get an exclusive shot at its broad and established readership. Now other publishers are going to get to sell their wares from an EC branded site but the EC authors books aren’t exposed to readerships at say Fictionwise or All Romance eBooks.
I’m not sure if EC is going to open/launch a new bookstore front or sell the books straight from the EC site itself. Those details were not forthcoming nor is there any date I was given as to when readers could expect to see other publishers books on EC’s site. Ultimately, the question is whether EC is positioning itself to be a major etailer of erotic romance and romance books to compete with All Romance eBooks, Fictionwise.com and BooksonBoard and if so, what that means for the epublishing industry. Vertical integration is a smart business choice and I can hardly fault EC for going that route.
Well, it’s a good deal for an author starting out with a shit epub. How will EC go about screening epubs, or will it take on anyone willing to give up 40% of their royalties? And does that 40% come out of the publisher’s cut or the author’s?
I can well imagine that EC authors will be unhappy, because if EC makes more money off their competitor’s books, so guess where all the promo is going towards?
dang it….meant to ETA that my sympathy gets less for EC authors when they write stuff like this:
Elitist much?
I don’t know whether any of the more successful epubs will participate in something like this, either. Yeah, you get a bit more distribution, but you’re also putting money in your competitor’s pocket. There are all kinds of long term repercussions that will need to be considered.
And I wonder how many books from those small, unproven epubs will survive the vetting process and make it onto the site. The books that stand to benefit the most from this are the very ones EC will likely reject.
Yes, Emmy, it is elitist, but that doesn’t make it completely untrue. EC has been the top erotic romance epub from the word go. It’s hard to get in–it can take a year just to hear back on a submission–and I’m sure they reject more books than any other epub.
I chose not to sub to them because I didn’t have the patience for that. It would feel weird to me to benefit from their higher status having not paid my dues, especially if that meant their own authors’ sales might suffer for it.
And how far does this weird feeling extend? If you needed the money, would you refuse to allow EC to sell your book on the off chance that an EC author might lose a sale? I can tell you that my concern for that would end where my bills begin. You can’t reasonably expect people to feel guilty about doing something perfectly legal to make a buck.
It’s kind of like refusing to go to Harvard because you’re poor and don’t have a trust fund. F*ck that. If you can get in, go for it.
The people who sweated and stressed over those year waits to get their book sold by EC have to be kicking themselves in the ass after reading about this though.
Dammit, I had a whole long reply and my computer messed up.
Basically, I was just saying I’m not a cheerleader and I’m not thrilled about this either but I don’t think it’s that huge a deal. The other pubs won’t be on the front (new release) page, they won’t be listed in Coming Soon. And honestly, most of my backlist sales seem to come from people reading one of my books or seeing a review and deciding to try more; I notice a big jump in backlist sales when I have a new release, and then it falls back to its regular level. I don’t think having clearly-marked other publishers’ books mixed in with the genre list is going to have that negative an impact, especially when you consider it might increase traffic considerably and encourage people who haven’t bought from EC in the past to try some EC titles.
On the whole, I think any venture that increases the sale of ebooks is good for the entire industry. I can understand the sentiment purportedly expressed by an EC author, but as far as I know, EC never promised its authors that their erotic supremacist sandbox would never be tainted with the potentially inferior words of lower races… erm, authors. It’s business. And, I don’t see a downside for corporate EC here.
From what I’ve seen of the venture (still VERY nascent stages), EC will retain the ability to “just say no” to any title. So, a small, unproven (or “shit”) epub isn’t guaranteed a place in the sandbox, much less a bucket and pail to shovel the sand sausages.
To assume that an author who hasn’t been published by EC is unable to pass muster is not only insulting, it’s just plain ludicrous. So, from my vantage, the “there goes the neighborhood” attitude is quite petty.
I hope the venture is a success. When epublishers are successful, we all win.
I do think it blurs quite a few lines. We have agent/publisher rep, publisher/distributor, author/owner etc etc. I suppose just a continuation of that trend but if, as they say, the will sell the books intermingled from their own site I do think is confuses the branding, roles etc. It is not exactly what the author signed up for, regardless of which publisher (i.e. I would think the same if the deal came from any epress). At this point I am assuming distribution would be direct from the EC site, their letter quoting hits and sales figures suggests as much.
You are right again!
Ellora’s Cave does not bother to sell or promote it’s eBooks on Fictionwise, BooksonBoard, All Romance eBooks or even Kindle or Sony or iPhone. Ellora’s Cave has spent almost no effort following the ePub trends of distribution on these new platforms.
Now they want to use the one leverage their authors held on to which was exclusive Ellora’s Cave sales from their web site and provide that to other ePubs some of which are promoting their authors on these new platforms.
I do think those authors who have stuck by them while watching Samhain and Loose Id authors getting highly visible sales on Amazon and Fictionwise are getting a raw deal.
How much % of royalties to other etailers like Fictionwise charge? 40%? I should know that, but I made the mistake of watching the debate last night and now the only percent point in my head is 95%.
Clearly EC will be the winner in every scenario here. Any ePub that signs the agreement risks being seen as “desperate” for sales when in fact they could be doing well on their own, and any ePub that refuses to sign risks putting off authors who may believe they are being denied what could be great exposure for their books.
One thing to consider, too, is that a spot on EC’s site may not guarantee riches. We can agree not all ePubs are created equally, but assuredly no two ePubs are alike. Many of the EC books I have read carry specific themes: BDSM with male Doms, and frequent sex from the first chapter. Will a femme Domme novel from another pub sell well with a market that visits this website for the opposite type of story, just because it is on the EC site?
EC doesn’t sell its books on Fictionwide because EC’s authors have repeatedly asked them not to. They’re willing. We are not. They ask us, and we say no. This has happened several times in the last few years.
I can’t see EC wanting to dilute its brand by selling the books of other publishers alongside their own. I would imagine they would give other publishers pages of their own, which won’t be on the front page, but will be linked there.
I write for all three of the major epubs - Samhain, Loose-Id and Ellora’s Cave, and their approaches, and the way my books are branded are very different at all three publishers. However, there are some similarities in approach. For instance, all three strive to move with the times. They don’t assume that what worked last year will work this year, and they all keep up with general market trends, as well as the ones in their specific sectors. The independents have to step up now the major publishers and distributors are getting more interested in the ebook market, and the top epublishers are all taking this into account.
For me, it would be great to see all my books under one umbrella, but at the moment the only place that happens is at Fantastic Fiction and on my website. However, I can’t see my Samhain books listed on my Ellora’s Cave page, any more than I can see it done the other way around.
But for some, they wanted to be on Fictionwise, but weren’t willing to accept the contract addendum that was a condition. Apparently a majority must have said no.
What I’m wondering is, if there is a separate storefront, would our EC books be subject to the same cut to the storefront as the books of other publishers?
and any ePub that refuses to sign risks putting off authors who may believe they are being denied what could be great exposure for their books.
There are authors at smaller houses who will indeed feel that way. There are also authors at smaller houses who think this smells fishy and want nothing to do with it. I see too many assumptions that other houses and non-EC authors will jump at the chance to “Ooh oooh oohh, have our books listed at EC!!!” Yet I personally know two small press owners who both told EC “No thanks”, while a third owner is seriously weighing the pros and cons before signing to anything. Not everyone is blinded by the glitz, and some of us have reservations/questions/concerns about this new development.
Dang, now I’m going to have to break my business rule about not posting on blogs. But in the interests of handing out facts to replace speculation…
Thanks to Anion for the inciteful post. And to Alessia for an entertaining one!
Yes, this venture is still in early discussion stages.
Yes, if we go forward with it, our contract specifies what genres we will not carry, what plot elements cannot be in any book on our site - like no incest, pedophilia, etc. For example, we don’t care how popular incest/twincest claims to be with a niche market, EC does not carry incest “romances” - not from our own authors, not from another publisher. We could refuse to carry any book based on content, cover, or quality (books do have to look like they’ve been edited and proofed) — we can indeed “just say no”.
Snort, no one actually thinks that a percentage of sales price of a product is “pure profit”, do they? Hello, get a clue about the cost of running a business. If we go this route, we pay our business agent, we pay all the staff and costs for getting those other books onto our website and maintaining the website, etc, etc. We would hope to make a small profit from the venture. So why are we considering it? Because we see two other benefits for our sales and authors, and to the publishers who may choose to participate in this. Increased traffic to our site benefits all the books on that site. And for EC authors who might have books at another publisher who participates, their readers would find that author’s books at one source, making them likely to buy more of them regardless of which company published the ebook.
As pointed out, EC authors have loudly, clearly and continually stated that they do not want us to place their books through Fictionwise. (Our Cerridwen Press and TLC books are available at All Romance eBooks.) EC authors would take a major hit in royalties from sales - and possibly get no additional sales, just “cheaper” sales. Based on Fictionwise’s published statistics, EC sells almost twice as many books direct from our own website as Fictionwise sells in total for all the publishers it carries.
Raelene Gorlinsky, Publisher, ECPI
And how far does this weird feeling extend? If you needed the money, would you refuse to allow EC to sell your book on the off chance that an EC author might lose a sale?
Thing is, I don’t know that there would be any benefit for a Samhain author–sales are pretty good where I am, and I’d have to sell more than twice as many through EC (royalty of 30% of the 60% EC would leave us) as I do through MBaM.
And, I don’t see a downside for corporate EC here.
I don’t either. But as in any venture, there’s usually a downside for someone…
Ellora’s Cave does not bother to sell or promote it’s eBooks on Fictionwise, BooksonBoard, All Romance eBooks or even Kindle or Sony or iPhone. Ellora’s Cave has spent almost no effort following the ePub trends of distribution on these new platforms.
Understandable–they don’t want to fork over 50% of the cover price to a third party etailer. But they’ll happily take 40% from someone else. Any epub who takes them up on this offer needs to think long and hard about the long term: how will putting 40% of their money in a competitor’s pocket effect them and the industry one, two, five years down the line. That, I think, is the part that worries me the most. EC is already the big dog. I don’t know that everyone in the neighborhood needs to be feeding them.
I find some of the comments found on other blogs highly insulting. For authors’ books that are published with smaller publishers to be called mutt, is the highest insult ever, and this by EC authors. What makes them think they’re cream of the crop? I’ve read some pretty awful books by EC authors, books that to me were utter trash, and badly written. And then to pick on editing of smaller publishers’ books? Some of EC’s books could do with some major rewrites. And let me tell you, there are some awesome authors out there in left and right field.
As for EC’s decision to go this route, I think it’s a smart business move. Since the New York biggies are getting in on the e publishing act, it’s EC banding together with smaller e publishing houses against the NY conglomerates. From what I’ve heard, either party has the option to terminate at any time, so it’s not a huge risk for anyone concerned.
It’s also more exposure for many authors. And EC’s authors may be in arms about EC’s decision to forge ahead with this and have to share their precious throne with the servants, but they seem to forget that by having other houses listed on the EC site, the readers that buy at those houses might just go and check out EC. So, to me the ball rolls both ways. It could mean more sales for EC authors as well.
Once my books come out, I hope they’ll be acceptable for the EC site. The more exposure one’s writing gets, the better for the author, for everyone.
But for some, they wanted to be on Fictionwise, but weren’t willing to accept the contract addendum that was a condition. Apparently a majority must have said no.
Is that like when they try to put through a crucial health care bill here, but tack raises for all the politicians onto it, and then whine when it doesn’t pass?
Is that like when they try to put through a crucial health care bill here, but tack raises for all the politicians onto it, and then whine when it doesn’t pass?
That made me laugh, but I don’t think it was quite so Washingtonesque. To me it seemed more of a “this is the only way this makes sense for us as a company, do you want to do this?” sort of thing.
Lynne the offer being extended specifically says the books from EC and outside *will* be intermingled by genre. Indentified and searchable by publisher, but explicitly not listed separately.
see: http://www.erecsite.com/2008/10/elloras-cave-distributor-pt-ii.html
FWIW my kudos to those epresses seriously considering the offer who are soliciting author input before making a determination. You can’t please all of the people all of the time but trasperancy counts for a lot. I assume some presses ruled it out of consideration for various procedural reasons.
There is actually no offer being made at the moment. It’s just being considered by EC management but they decided to make a statement because it was leaked elsewhere. It could amount to nothing.
There is actually no offer being made at the moment. It’s just being considered by EC management but they decided to make a statement because it was leaked elsewhere. It could amount to nothing.
Again, I personally know three owners who have been approached. Granted that’s only three, but they’ve indeed received an “offer”. I’ve been biting my tongue on this for a while, wondering when it would hit the blogs. Personally I’m surprised it wasn’t “leaked” sooner.
I know of 7 who have received the offer.
As an EC author, I can see some merit in having let’s say my Amber Quill titles now available at the EC site. This might open up my other stories to a whole new audience who may shop exclusively at EC and hence could bring me a lot of potential profit.
I can’t see how advertising non-EC authors on the site would benefit EC, though. It also seems like a huge amount of work on ECs part. Even if they’re just adding covers and links to existing author pages it sounds like a monumental undertaking. There must be a huge up side for them to even consider it.
Even if they’re just adding covers and links to existing author pages it sounds like a monumental undertaking. There must be a huge up side for them to even consider it.
Um, 40% of receipts sounds like a pretty big upside. They would be possibly making more profit on those books than the epubs that publish them, without any of the art and editing costs.
the offer is out there in black and white– I have seen it–authors at other presses have seen it at least in outline. Apparently ECAuthors have not?
p.s. I can also see the benefit to EC of 40 percent of the price without any production costs, just betting and cataloguing– it must be more profitable to e- tail than to manufacture?
What I find amazing is the elitist attitude from several EC authors, who are so worried any below-par books (anything NOT EC) or below-par authors “who haven’t earned their dues”—get real!—would tarnish their “supposed” magnificence. They probably shouldn’t worry so much…From what I understand, based on statements made by several publishers who have been approached, including two of mine, is that THEY don’t want THEIR companies to be associated in any way, shape, or form with EC or its products. Yes, there are other pubs out there who have gone a long way in gaining their own good reputations (regardless of what some EC authors believe) and are doing just fine and dandy on their own without EC’s “help,” AND without giving EC a share of the profits. Were this another example of “All Romance EBooks,” started by the folks at Linden Bay Publishing, if I’m not mistaken, it might have been another story, since as in that case, there’s a distinct and unique storefront involved. But EC’s approach of opening up a store under THEIR name is something altogether different, since the EC name (reputation) is involved. And despite opinions to the contrary, not everyone in the universe thinks the EC reputation is stellar and, therefore, does not want to be associated with them or the types of books (or quality of books) they publish.
Personally, I wouldn’t want my work on their website, and I also wouldn’t want any of the profits from my book sales going to help finance the owner’s “get my husband out of prison for murder” legal fund.
Just a question…but what would have happened had the Pocket authors said some of these things when EC got a distribution deal with Simon & Schuster? Wonder how THEY would have felt…
Just a question…but what would have happened had the Pocket authors said some of these things when EC got a distribution deal with Simon & Schuster? Wonder how THEY would have felt…
Pretty crappy and annoyed, I’m guessing. But I think we’re losing sight of the larger issues here, those being:
1) What’s good for Ellora’s Cave corporate is not necessarily good for their authors.
2) What might seem good in the short term for smaller epubs and their authors could have some serious negative repercussions in the future.
Everyone went kind of bonzo over the Amazon/Booksurge attempted POD monopoly. Many were uncomfortable with the thought of a huge etailer trying to become the only print publishing option for small presses. Now we have the biggest erotic romance epublisher offering to act as etailer for other epubs’ books. Just because they aren’t strong-arming anyone doesn’t mean they don’t have their eyes on a similar corporate goal. And it doesn’t mean they’re evil or anything–more power to them if they can pull it off.
But smaller presses need to really consider whether opting in is going to be a good thing in the long term. They may have more to lose than to gain.
I do think that there is an advantage (as mentioned above) to having a full back list available for EC authors who might have books published at two or three different epubs. It just makes it more convenient for the author and the reader/buyer. And, it helps both publishers in the long run.
As for non EC authors, that’s a different story. It’s hard to say whether this will ultimately increase sales and profits or not (I suppose it depends on whether their royalty rates at the original publisher are going to change).
Like many of you, I hope that in the end it will be clear to the visitor who is the publisher for the book. It’s important for the author, but also the reader. I want to know what I’m getting when I buy a book. What I buy from Loose Id, for example, is different than what I buy at EC or Samhain.
And here it comes…
We were told that doubling and tripling the number of weekly releases wouldn’t adversely affect individual-title sales. It did adversely affect most individual-title sales. Now we’re being told that we’ll all get a boost from increased traffic to the site. But what good is new traffic if each driver has hundreds more destinations to choose from? How is that going to benefit EC authors? The answer: about as much as the clogged release schedule has.
I in no way harbor an elitist attitude about writing for Ellora’s Cave. If I did, I wouldn’t have books out with other publishers. I’m just sick and tired of watching my sales plummet due to management self-interest. There seems to be no friggin end to it!
So please excuse those of us who can’t sit back and calmly analyze this from a corporate perspective. After all, our seats aren’t cushioned by millions of dollars. And they’re getting thinner by the month.
Yes, for the record, not all EC authors think of authors for other houses as dirt under our feet–I think it’s an extremely small portion of the whole, if those commenters are actually EC authors (I have no reason to suppose they are or are not). At ALL. I think if you look back at least at some of my comments, you’ll see I speak very highly of quite a few other presses and their authors. Don’t judge all of us and assume we’re all angry at the idea of having our Golden Words intermingled with the riff-raff, please. Even if we’re not thrilled about this idea, it’s not necessarily because we think the other houses put out crap or anything like that.
“some epublishers with poor editing and/or poor covers” ha ha, is this for real?
Jaid Black herself wrote a line in “Breeding Ground” about someone telling someone else to “rule her people with a wrinkled hand”
People who live in glass houses………………
My only commment is that I recently refused an EC contract because it was very unfriendly towards authors, and they weren’t willing to change several key issues….Now I know that I made the right decision.
Even if we’re not thrilled about this idea, it’s not necessarily because we think the other houses put out crap or anything like that.
Well, the question of quality aside (since I think Samhain can stand up to EC in that regard any day of the week), it’s a lot harder as a new author to get picked up by EC. They may not be more choosy, but they do have more rigid house standards when it comes to content, and it can take more than a year to hear back on a sub. They also have a pretty grabby contract, if what I hear is correct. That’s a lot to ask an author to put up with from an epub, but many were willing to do it because of the higher sales and exposure that comes with being pubbed by EC.
Now authors who didn’t have to deal with the “must have sex by chapter three” mandate, the options clause from hell and the year-long wait are getting those benefits. That’s got to rankle a bit.
Now authors who didn’t have to deal with the “must have sex by chapter three” mandate, the options clause from hell and the year-long wait are getting those benefits. That’s got to rankle a bit.
No, it certainly does NOT have to rankle a bit. Why are you automatically assuming it does, for all of us, based on one or two comments from one or two authors? I could just as easily say “It’s got to rankle Samhain authors that they only recently got a major NY distro deal, when EC’s been dealing with Pocket for such a long time” or “It’s got to rankle LSB authors that their house doesn’t have a distro deal at all”. I don’t believe that, not one bit. Why are you so willing to ascribe negative emotions and pettiness to EC authors? Not just willing, but insistent?
I have never once been told “must have sex by chapter three”, not am I aware of a single EC author, by name, who has. I’ve heard lots of “A girl I know” stories, but that’s it. The only editorial comment I ever got based on the amount of sex in one of my books was that as it stood the book was mild, and if I wanted to add some more sex it would probably increase sales, but the decision was entirely mine to make.
I emailed Contracts and asked them to remove my option clause. They did, within a single business day. I don’t know personally a single EC author who still has an option clause. How is that “the option clause from hell”?
I didn’t wait a year, either. I wrote a quickie. It got accepted. From that moment I submitted to my own editor and waited a couple of months. It’s not like that’s a new sneaky strategy; I’ve seen it recommended, and have recommended it myself, dozens of times. And for every person I know of who waited a year, I know of someone else who had a much shorter wait because something about their book just grabbed their editor.
You want to hate EC without having actually written for them? Fine. But I am not EC. I’m a writer just like you. I don’t run the business. I have zero input on how the business is run. Don’t tell me what does and does not “rankle” me, when I’ve tried to make a point of saying that not all of us think authors for other pubs are a bunch of crap artists. I had the silly impression that some of those smaller- or other-house authors might see that and feel bad; that they might think “Wow, those EC authors are a bunch of jerks” or “Wow, I was proud of my accomplishment, and everyone else seems to think epublishing is some sort of also-ran industry, and now there’s other epublished authors telling me I have no talent based on my publisher and not my actual work, and damned if that doesn’t make me feel really stepped on and lousy”; and simply wanted to say that we don’t all feel that way. That chances are the majority of us do not feel that way.
I am FOR epublishing. I want to see more options out there. I want to see epublished authors get the respect they deserve. I want to see more houses do well and have great sales. I don’t care how they get it, frankly; if having those books on the EC site with mine means the industry becomes stronger and more readers are exposed to more good books, I think that’s a good thing (Note: That’s not me endorsing the idea, it’s simply a statement of feeling regarding epublishing and its success). If that means that more authors get to make more money because they wrote a great book, I think that’s a good thing. If it means epublishing as an industry grows and gains respect because it’s easier for readers to find the kinds of books they like, again, I think that’s a good thing.
What I do NOT think is that I’m any freaking better than someone who writes for Samhain or LSB or Amber Quill or Loose-Id or Wild Rose or Amira or Exstasy or Champagne or those poor authors getting ass-fucked over at New Concepts, just because I’m published by EC.
And being told, when I say that, that in fact I actually do feel that way, that I’ve got to be pissed off about them being treated like they’re as good as me when I must think they’re not–in effect being called a liar, in other words… THAT rankles me.
Dammit! I was literally a second late on clicking the “edit” button.
I wanted to clarify this a tad:
I had the silly impression that some of those smaller- or other-house authors might see that and feel bad
It’s not that I think they’d feel bad because some superspecial oh-so-genius EC author is the one calling them mutts, like the opinion of an EC author is oh-so-valuable to them. I just think in general that sort of comment makes people feel bad. I know it bugs me when I hear authors from other houses saying all EC books are garbage (which they do say, and which I never dispute because they have a right to their opinions even if I disagree. How many of us can say every book their houses publish is excellent and wonderful? That there isn’t a single book put out by their house that they feel isn’t as well written as they’d like, doesn’t have an annoying character or a joke that isn’t funny or a sentence that’s wonky or a character who feels shallow or a sex scene they find tasteless? Not many, I would think.) It wasn’t ego that lead me to say it, is what I’m trying to clarify.
I have to confess I’m still befuddled as to why EC authors wouldn’t want to be exposed to more distribution venues even if it means at a substantially smaller rate. Maybe there is less to be gained, but wider distribution seems to equal more sales.
Anion, I’m glad you were able to get your options clause removed entirely. I wish they would have done the same for me, but they just tried to reword it differently and because I’ve just sold to a NY pub house I couldn’t sign with any form of an option on my contract. bummer really, cause I was looking forward to writing for them, and the editor that had contacted me seemed really pumped too…but, they were very rigid ( this is fresh…like two weeks ago), wanted rights to my work for a lifetime as well….I personally know of several authors who don’t write for them anymore because of how picky their contracts have become…but then, they’ve also sold to publishing houses as well and have another outlet for their craft.
I wish you continued success with EC and to any other writer out there, no matter what epub or house you write for….seems to me, we need to be supporting each other
I have to confess I’m still befuddled as to why EC authors wouldn’t want to be exposed to more distribution venues even if it means at a substantially smaller rate. Maybe there is less to be gained, but wider distribution seems to equal more sales.
Are you talking about why they don’t want to be listed at Fictionwise? I might think twice if Samhain had the average first month sales that EC supposedly has. There’s a huge difference between the 40% of cover price that I get from MBaM sales, and the 30% of 50% that I get from sales at Fictionwise or ARe.
I think if EC authors continue to see average per-title sales decrease, they’ll be more open to third party sales. Up to just a little while ago, I can see why the cons might have outweighed the pros.
EC doesn’t sell its books on Fictionwide because EC’s authors have repeatedly asked them not to.
But I am not EC. I’m a writer just like you. I don’t run the business. I have zero input on how the business is run.
Your right Jane. Plus all the conflicting points of view by different writers. Some feel they are involved in how Ellora’s Cave runs their business and others feel they have no say in how Ellora’s Cave runs their business.
I always wondered how Ellora’s Cave did not participate in the standard distribution avenues for eBooks we see Samhain or Loose Id use like Ingrams or Amazon Kindle store or even Fictionwise and yet their sales are supposed to be excellent.
But then I remember they do have major draws like the back catalogs of authors like a Sarah McCarty or a Lora Leigh.
Why are you so willing to ascribe negative emotions and pettiness to EC authors? Not just willing, but insistent?
You want to hate EC without having actually written for them? Fine. But I am not EC. I’m a writer just like you. I don’t run the business. I have zero input on how the business is run. Don’t tell me what does and does not “rankle” me,
I’m not ascribing negative emotions to them. I’m just saying that if some are upset, it might be for good reason, not the snotty, superior, “other pubs’ books are mutts” reasons that many seem to be objecting to.
And I don’t hate EC. I just believe that when the executive level of any business makes a decision that might impact negatively on their employees, those employees have a right to speak up and say they’re annoyed. And no, a business can’t run based only on the wishes of its employees, but one that disregards those wishes entirely can find itself in a bad place.
that they might think “Wow, those EC authors are a bunch of jerks” or “Wow, I was proud of my accomplishment, and everyone else seems to think epublishing is some sort of also-ran industry, and now there’s other epublished authors telling me I have no talent based on my publisher and not my actual work, and damned if that doesn’t make me feel really stepped on and lousy”
Agreed. But that doesn’t mean those EC authors don’t have reason to be concerned–maybe not over the whole mutt thing, but over their company doing something that may benefit the executive at the expense of authors.
if having those books on the EC site with mine means the industry becomes stronger and more readers are exposed to more good books, I think that’s a good thing
Well, the problem is, I can see it will be good for the PTB at EC. But the benefits to EC authors, other publishers, and the industry as a whole are more murky.
What I do NOT think is that I’m any freaking better… just because I’m published by EC.
Maybe I wasn’t being clear enough, and if I wasn’t, I apologize. What I was trying to say is that it’s possible for some EC authors to feel put out by this for reasons other than egotism. No matter who you write for, you make certain compromises (even if it’s just the long wait time on first sub, or competing with more releases per week) based on which publisher you choose and the benefits you feel you’re going to get from them. To see others given the opportunity to reap those benefits without having to make the compromises might get some people’s backs up. That doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with feeling better than anyone.
in effect being called a liar, in other words
*sigh* All right, let me amend. “That’s got to rankle some authors.”
Teddy, being asked–as a whole–whether we want our books on Fictionwise is very different from having input on how the business is run. The company you work for may on occasion, say, offer you a choice of two different plans for health insurance and say they’ll go with the majority; that doesn’t mean you have input on how the business is run.
I guess I should have said “With the exception of twice being asked (along with my fellow authors) if we want our books on Fictionwise, I have zero input on how the business is run.” Is that better?
Okay, Kirsten. You just said:
Maybe I wasn’t being clear enough, and if I wasn’t, I apologize. What I was trying to say is that it’s possible for some EC authors to feel put out by this for reasons other than egotism.
How exactly is that different from what I originally said, which you quoted and posted to dispute?
To refresh your memory, I said:
Even if we’re not thrilled about this idea, it’s not necessarily because we think the other houses put out crap or anything like that.
So…you were posting in support of this statement? If that’s the case clearly I’m the one who should apologize. It certainly looked like a disagreement to me.
So…you were posting in support of this statement?
I was, mostly. I was kind of elaborating on it by trying (and obviously failing) to convey that some of those who come off as egotistical could actually be more concerned with concrete things like the impact on their sales, than they are with their books rubbing elbows with “inferior” ones. They’re pissed and some of what they say is going to be kind of kneejerk–like you thinking I was calling you a liar when I never intended to do that.
To be honest, elitism and feeling you’ve earned something aren’t necessarily the same thing. What I’m trying to say is that some EC authors feel like they’ve earned the right to be there, and they’ve given up some things other houses offer, like distribution through third party retailers, for the opportunities EC gives them that other pubs can’t or won’t. That doesn’t necessarily mean they think other publishers’ books are less awesome than theirs.
I think those disgruntled EC authors would feel differently if other publisher’s books were sold through a separate storefront, or even on separate pages within the site. Or if EC began by offering to sell other publishers’ books by EC authors on their site. If that was the case, EC authors would be hard pressed to NOT see some benefit in it for them.
And I also feel that going on and on about “so and so called my book a mutt” distracts us from more important issues, like: will this be good for EC authors? Will this be good, long term, for other publishers? Will this be good for the industry as whole? Will this be good for anyone other than the executive at EC?
And I also feel that going on and on about “so and so called my book a mutt” distracts us from more important issues, like: will this be good for EC authors? Will this be good, long term, for other publishers? Will this be good for the industry as whole? Will this be good for anyone other than the executive at EC?
Exactly, Kirsten. Thank you for that injection of reason. (Excuse me if this seems inappropriate, but I’ve been chuckling over all the mutt-generated umbrage and indignation. Yikes. I can just about see the feathers flying off all y’all’s boas. Good thing most authors aren’t reviewed by Mrs. Giggles, eh? ;-) Hell, own your mutts! I happen to love mine, and many of them are skulking around Ellora’s Cave!)
Re. Fictionwise in relation to the bigger e-pubs: Seems to me the most sensible approach to utilizing this resource is to send FW older titles with flagging sales. The increased exposure could stimulate new and broader interest in the authors. Newly released books and those that consistently sell well on-site — for example, the ones by writers with NY print contracts — will obviously yield a bigger financial return if they’re purchased directly from the publisher.
Re. Fictionwise in relation to the bigger e-pubs: Seems to me the most sensible approach to utilizing this resource is to send FW older titles with flagging sales.
But for some, they wanted to be on Fictionwise, but weren’t willing to accept the contract addendum that was a condition. Apparently a majority must have said no.
Thinking of the latter in relation to the former, it makes me wonder what “the majority” has to do with anything. There’s nothing stopping EC from putting some author’s books up on Fictionwise, and keeping other exclusive to EC. Well, other than the fact that they don’t want to hand over 50% of the cover price…
Looking through my contracts…nope, no “must have sex by chapter three,” no “options clause from hell,” and no “year-long wait.” Heck, I don’t even have the rights-of-first-refusal clause.
Just exactly where are you getting your information, Kirsten?
Just exactly where are you getting your information, Kirsten?
*sigh*
You’ve been writing for them for a while, I’m guessing. I’ve heard from a few people that there’s a right of first refusal clause in the boilerplate now, and at least one person on this thread has said EC wasn’t willing to remove it when asked. It likely isn’t on your contract because you started writing for them before they introduced it.
And when I say year-long wait, that’s to hear back on a submission, and I’m talking for first-time subs from newbs, not from veterans. And no, not on every sub, but on enough that I wouldn’t count on a quick turnaround. I’ve heard some NY pubs can take a year or more to get back to you, and I know that isn’t going to be the case on every sub, either. BUT, if I were subbing to them, I’d be wise to plan for the worst, so all my surprises could be pleasant ones.
And a longer wait time doesn’t mean a publisher is no good (often just the opposite), just that it’s likely gonna take longer to get in than some are willing to wait.
And no, I’m guessing there isn’t a clause in the contract that there be sex by chapter 3. I was being flip, you’ll have to forgive me. But EC doesn’t publish anything but erotic romance. Erotic romance is, by definition going to have lots of sex, often early in the story. That’s not a bad thing, either (heck, I have sex in the first chapter in a lot of my books), but it does mean that they won’t accept a lot of submissions that would find a happy home at other publishers.
I honestly didn’t think that saying they’re picky and demanding in the books they accept would be construed as a criticism. Really the only blanket negative of those three things is that options clause.
What I was trying to say is that it’s harder to get published by EC than by many other epublishers, and that EC authors have a right to be annoyed when the benefits EC provides to its authors get offered to those they feel haven’t earned the right to them. I don’t think all EC authors feel this way. But I do think an author who feels put out by this deal isn’t necessarily being snooty or elitist.
Ann, I was offered a contract less than a month ago…I had subbed to EC at the end of February, and was thrilled when they offered…however, I was not thrilled when I recieved the contract. I know several other authors that write for EC and have done so for a long time and they’ve not had these issues….as you obviously don’t…however, as I understand it, their contracts have changed in the last 18 months or so, and they have a first refusal clause…it’s there….I wanted it removed, but they wouldn’t…they tried to reword it, but I was not going to sign a contract with any type of clause like that. They also wouldn’t budge on the rights clause…I thought I was being more than generous in asking for a max of 10 years, but they refused and said they wanted lifetime rights…..so, even though I would have loved to write for EC….their contract wasn’t for me.
Sounds like there is conflicting points of view on these issues because the older crowd at Ellora’s Cave gets the contracts they want and treated the way they want while the new kids get treated with a vastly different set of rules. Good thing to know.
Juliana — According to your web site (which uses really annoying Flash, btw), you have a release coming from EC.
Kirsten, I fully understand you’re being flip. However, I have to counter that my editor has never told me that I must edit my stories to have sex earlier in the story or more often.
ETA: She might make suggestions to help sell more copies, but it’s up to me whether or not to follow her advice.
Ann
yeah, I’m waiting for my web guy to remove this…I only refused their contract last week…after weeks of going back and forth…so it will be taken off….sorry you find the flash annoying! I quite like it!
And Teddypig…you’re right….I know several authors who have written for them for years and are treated very well, make a very good living and have no problems…however, their contracts are way different then the one I got. I also know of several authors who don’t write for them anymore because of many different factors…I think it all comes down to knowing what exactly it is you’re signing…
Juliana you are not the first author to make statements like this about Ellora’s Cave and their contracts. Nor are you the first to be argued with over your actual experience with them by someone who comes in saying they “know” how things work.
So basically it does finally start to look like there is an “inner circle” of authors who flat out get “special treatment” and “special considerations” at Ellora’s Cave.
Kirsten, I fully understand you’re being flip. However, I have to counter that my editor has never told me that I must edit my stories to have sex earlier in the story or more often.
And again, you’ve been writing for them since, what? 2005? Newbs maybe might not be allowed the creative freedom that veterans are, and it may well be that these are differences in editors’ personalities, too. I’m only going by what I’ve been told by a few authors regarding the amount of sex, the type of sex, and how early it shows up in the story. And no, I don’t feel like I can reveal names.
But again, I’m not necessarily saying that this is a horrible thing–just that the compromises authors are willing to make when choosing one pub over another are dependent on the benefits they receive in return. And authors who have made those compromises have a right to be cheesed when the company decides to give those benefits to those who haven’t made the compromises. They have a right to be worried about their sales. That doesn’t mean they’re snooty and elitist.
I’m new with Ellora’s Cave, I only have one novella out with them and only since May of this year. So be assured I’m hardly inner circle or elite anything lol. But I have two new novels coming from EC and several others on submission and have *never* been asked to put more sex in a book. I’ve never seen anything in the house style information saying anything about sex by a certain chapter. In fact, one of my upcoming releases with them, the characters don’t have sex for the first time until chapter SIX! :) I can’t speak to whether the options clause is easy to get out of or not, as I haven’t tried to negotiate out of it. I’m perfectly happy to let EC take a look at a new MS. There’s nothing in the contract saying I have to sign any offer they make. Just that they get to look at it first. What’s wrong with that?
I don’t think EC is perfect, no business is, but I think they do get villainized a lot for things people misunderstand and based on what they ‘heard’. I’m just saying maybe what you hear isn’t fact. I’m not an old-school EC author, I’m a total newb and I can verify what’s been said here regarding the refuting of the rumors that EC requires sex by a certain page and treats newbies like inferiors. It’s not true.
Simple Fae. EC has leveraged you.
So this first refusal clause in this contract, on only one book mind you, limits your ability legally as an author to pursue other deals by putting EC into your business on other books.
It is not that Ellora’s Cave is perfect but it does seem they are erratic and selective in who receives what type of treatment.
What I don’t understand, Teddy, is the seemingly over-zealous concern about what amounts to a very minor limitation. Yes, if an author did not want their next book published by EC, they would still have to offer it to them. BUT, and here’s where my confusion sets in, that author still has the option of refusing any offer EC might make and then taking that work elsewhere, no longer bound to EC for anything further. Is a couple of months waiting to hear back on a manuscript really a big deal when publishing in general moves at such a glacial pace anyway?
Turnaround for inside submissions is nowhere near as long as slush pile submissions, I don’t really see where a couple of months is going to make a huge difference in the scheme of things for an author who wanted out (which is not me, btw lol, I’m perfectly happy to submit and have published any future work EC wants of mine currently)
This is, of course, operating under some people’s assumption that said clause is non-negotiable, of which I have seen no evidence.
Fae,
All I said is it legally gets them involved with your business as a writer. Whatever is a priority to you defines how limiting that or any other clause is.
I do not think plain talking about these aspects of a companies business is declaring them to be a villain. It is the simply the facts of the contract.
If for some authors signing over lifetime agreements and first refusal rights are negatives, which for most sensible people they are, then these are facts that new authors need to know about a companies practices.
No amount of swooping in saying “nah nah I don’t get the same contract.” negates a new author when she states what was in her contract with Ellora’s Cave and what they would negotiate with her about.