There’s a difference between
your writing sux and your a big stupidhead

and

You use too many dialog tags, your character isn’t fully fleshed out, I don’t quite buy the motivation for the hero and this particular plot has more holes than a cheese grater

Both could be viewed as harsh.

But the first one is lame and unnecessary.

The second one, may be seen as harsh, but it’s honest. It addresses specific points that need to be improved upon. A writer has to be able to take that kind of criticism,

I sit pretty much where I choose

lol. Shannon, I think I love you. (Save me a seat in your row.)

As someone who’s commented once or twice here (and not just to ‘pat the author on the head’) I will also agree with Erastes–there are ways, and then there are ways, to crit. It’s not about being nice/ineffectual vs mean/telling-like-it-is. It is about tone. <–yes, this can be counted as another whiney vote for ‘it’s not what you say, but how you say it.’ You don’t have to sugarcoat stuff or blow smoke up peeps butts, but in terms of heat, with a one page submission (no query, title, synopsis, etc) there’s no need to turn on all burners full force, along with the grill, the warming drawer, and the oven as well.

Grow up. If you can’t take the fact that people point out things in different ways, don’t comment at all. I made my comments and had no others until you two decided I needed to be made an example of.

Try taking a little of your own advice and comment to the author, not to anyone else’s remarks.

I’m online at a relative’s house now, procrastinating before I head back home-what’s left Ike went through our area and knocked out power. No internet!

My unsolicited two cents before I force myself to disconnect from the web…

* Marsha is a very cool chick and I hope when she’s ready, she submits her book, gets a fantastic deal right off the bat and I get to meet her at a convention and have her sign my laptop. She handled some blunt, honest criticism with the kind of grace all authors need to have.

* Another thing all writers do need to have…that ability to handle honest, and sometimes harsh, criticism. We have to. I once had an editor tell me that a book of mine was the most depressing thing she’d ever read and she just didn’t know what to do with it. Not the funnest thing to hear for any writer. But it comes with being a writer.

The rest of my post is just rambling on, most in reference to the sideline conversation regarding criticism, honesty and mean girls/nice girls.

Skimming back over the posts, most of the criticism I saw was fair-some a little harsher than I’d hand out, but a lot of that is because I’ve got a huge heaping of brutal honesty and I’ve learned that tempering it serves me better.

None of the critcism really struck me as anything attacking the writer.

(Not picking on ya, Ann B, I swear) Ann B said,

Is it too mean of me to want to smack Jody and say, “Suck it up, princess”? Blaming the victim is not correct, but in this case, I think she brought the situation on herself.

The writing didn’t wow me, but it didn’t make me want to suggest the writer brush up on rudimentary English or pick up a copy of Strunk’s reference book.

Clearly Ann didn’t like the heroine, and yep, I recognize the blunt, brutal honesty. But Ann also clearly said she didn’t really find fault with the writing. She just didn’t like the character.

That’s subjective and it’s something any writer needs to be aware of-not everybody is going to love every character we create.

My opinion as a writer on getting criticism is that I want it honest. If you can’t give me an honest opinion, then I’d rather not waste my time. I can’t improve if I don’t see what I need to improve upon.

There’s a difference between
your writing sux and your a big stupidhead

and

You use too many dialog tags, your character isn’t fully fleshed out, I don’t quite buy the motivation for the hero and this particular plot has more holes than a cheese grater

Both could be viewed as harsh.

But the first one is lame and unnecessary.

The second one, may be seen as harsh, but it’s honest. It addresses specific points that need to be improved upon. A writer has to be able to take that kind of criticism, because if a writer in the business long enough, the writer will probably come up against an editor that has that way of handling critiques.

And now I’m gonna get…back home to the land of no intrawebs, junk food and whatever I can cook on the grill and warm diet cokes.

Why? Because I’ve been a part of conversations and received emails in the last couple of months about how several of you have been running roughshod over the comments here, turning many conversations into hostile battlegrounds rife with insults and sneering. By relegating dissenting opinions to the peanut gallery, you’re pretty stating this is your stage and we’re just nasty little hecklers.

And since the Theo, Ann and Anion Show is getting old, I’m done, too.

Sorry, Ja(y)nes.

If you’re not going to help the author, don’t bash the people who are. Which is exactly what’s happening here.

So, if you don’t want to help the author, don’t shoot the rest of us and these things won’t disintegrate into a bunch of name-calling diatribes. Because I don’t see anyone bashing the author, nor did I see anyone bashing any commenter who thought everything was wonderful until the peanut gallery started chiming in about how god-awful all of us were for pointing out areas that needed work.

Sorry, Jane. I’m done.

And I don’t pat anybody on the head. I think any writer who’s been following these threads on DA and chooses to submit knows what she’s in for. I don’t regularly participate—other than when a writer’s being misled as to craft issues, for instance—because I have a hard time being blunt about another’s work and choose not to critique rather than blow smoke because that doesn’t help her.

But the peanut gallery comment irks me because that’s the part of the audience that harasses and heckles the performer, and you’re not the headliners.

If you want to pat people on the head and tell them, gee, honey, this is cute, go right ahead. Five years from now, when they’re still getting a form rejection and haven’t been asked for the first five or thirty pages or a complete submission, you might just be one of the people they’ll have to thank for it.

If you want to try to help them be the best they can be (and it’s never a guarantee you’ll get past the query but certainly what every author strives for) then you need to give them an honest crit and that involves pointing out areas for improvement.

The only people I see here who are having a problem with any of this are the ones who can’t seem to say anything other than, gee, I really like it.

That doesn’t help anyone.

Too bad the peanut gallery isn’t taking lessons from her.

I’m trying hard to understand why people think it’s ok to treat new writers like shit, because if you don’t get them used to being harassed and disparaged now, it’ll hurt more when other, less caring assholes do it later.

Isn’t that the justification all abusers have? I’m only hurting you because I love you and care about you?

1) I’ve never seen a crit that directs any “abuse” toward a writer. A crit is a breakdown of the work, not the person. If you can’t keep the two straight, shut up, because you have no idea what you’re talking about.

2) A crit that give a gerneral, wishy-washy, “I like it/didn’t like it,” isn’t going to help any writer improve the submission. It’s a pat on the head, a, “that’s nice, dear,” which gives no direction for corrections.

3) Crits are very subjective. Eveybody has his or her own opinion and will crit a different way. The value in a forum such as this one is gathering the opininons seeing what hot-spots are identified.

4) By submitting here, the writer is asking us to do exactly this; tear her work down sentence by sentence so she can put it back together better.

If you want a pat on the head and admiration, let your mom read it. This isn’t Kindergarten and we’re not sticking anyone’s masterpiece on the fridge here. I think everyone who submits here knows to put on her big-girl panties before asking for advice, and those who can’t keep a crit and a bash sorted out need to find a pair.

Am I mistaken or are all of these complaints coming from the peanut gallery? The writers being critted don’t have a problem with what they are reading from us so why should anyone else?

Personally, I prefer having my shit torn to shreds and knowing why someone would pass, what’s not working, what’s awkward, etc. I pretty much read all these first pages and most, if not all of the comments that go with them and I don’t think there’s been a single one where I thought they were too harsh or mean or whatever.

And I don’t know about anyone else but I really do believe that if you can’t handle getting thoroughly, even harshly, critiqued you have no business being a writer. Thick skin, people. Grow some.

And Marsha, you rock. I really admire how well you’ve handled all the side tangents on this. Keep on truckin.

Someone upthread (sorry, too lazy to go back) said something about an editor saying writers are tougher on other writers than editors are. I believe that. Most times, all an editor has to say is “No” to unwanted or mediocre submissions. She sure isn’t going to critique your work. That “no” says it all. All of the words, criticism, compliments, suggestions, and advice that writers share with other writers, aspiring and otherwise, are just our feeble attempts to help a writer avoid that fugly little word. That’s the *critique* that really hurts.

I’m trying hard to understand why people think it’s ok to treat new writers like shit, because if you don’t get them used to being harassed and disparaged now, it’ll hurt more when other, less caring assholes do it later

Nobody has said that.

Anyway, you just gotta love the Internet. Adios.

I’m trying hard to understand why people think it’s ok to treat new writers like shit

PLease give me an example where someone thinks that.

There’s a difference between giving hard crit to a story, and being mean to the author. Only when the author learns the difference – and too many never do – can you consider them mature as a writer.

Isn’t that the justification all abusers have? I’m only hurting you because I love you and care about you?

You’ve got me bang to rights. Yeah, absolutely, critting someone’s piece is exactly the same as spousal abuse.

Puh-lease.

Isn’t that the justification all abusers have? I’m only hurting you because I love you and care about you?

A sheet of 32 one dollar bills costs about $55 USD

!!!!

Seriously, even using money wouldn’t appease some of the little flowers.

If I’m commenting at all it’s because I think there’s potential there, and I want to help.

Ditto. And I still want to help new writers improve because that’s how *I* improved. I owe everything to people who’ve given me advice, betas, comments, feedback. I have no great innate talent, but I am immensely teachable. I want to give that back.

But like Anion, I’ve suffered for that. I’ve been stalked, harassed, threatened, trashed and cast repeatedly as a villain for offering honest critique. Every time I do a beta or offer crit to someone who’s not a close friend (and even sometimes when they are) I wonder, is this going to blow up in my face again? Because the hit rate is 50% on that. This is why so few people do real crit. You have to have a thick hide and believe in what you’re doing.

It’s why I am so impatient with people who whine about tone. Girlfriend, I’m doing *you* the favour. Do not whine to me about the wrapping paper.