Possible Cassie Edwards Response to Plagiarism Charges
By Jane • Jan 13th, 2008 • Category: Letters of Opinion, Misc • •Commenter at Smart Bitches, provided a copy of the following which is alleged to be the response of Cassie Edwards which she sent to a fan. Dear Author has contacted both the fan and Cassie Edwards for a response but has received neither a denial nor a confirmation.
Updated to add: DA contacted, via telephone, a representative of Cassie Edwards to authenticate the statement below. In response, the representative replied that there would be no comment. You can all draw whatever conclusions you want from that.
Jan 12,
2008
12:11 AM
Subject: A Few Words From Cassie Edwards. Please pass this on….
Body: With Cassie Edwards approval I pass this letter on, concerning the plagiarism accusation against her. She needs our support. Please forward this to all your friends.
In acknowledgement of your support contact me at:
www.myspace.com/destinyschoice8 or write to Cassie at:
www.myspace.com/cassieedwardsromance
Thanks, Lisa
width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”smile” style=”border:0;” />
Cassie Ed..
Date:
Jan 11, 2008 4:57 PM
————————— Original Message
From: Cassie Edwards
Date: Jan 11, 2008 11:58 AM
Hi, Lisa,
I just got on My Space and I found your wonderful encouraging letter. Thank you for believing in me, for I have done nothing wrong. My publisher is standing behind me 100%, for they know my work better than anyone, and they know that all romance authors who use research for historicals have to use reference books to do this. My readers love this accurate material about the Indians. And if I couldn’t use this material my books would not be worth anything to my readers who depend on me.
The sad thing is that I am writing these books now in a way to honor our Native Americans, past, present and in the future. And I am honoring my great grandmother who was a full blood Cheyenne. She would be so proud of me if she could read what I am writing about the Indians who have been so maligned for so long. And do you know? I feel picked on now as our Native American Indians have always been picked on throughout history. I am trying to spread the word about them and what do I get? Spiteful women who have found a way to bring attention to themselves, by getting in the media in this horrible way.
Right now I am getting hit from all sides….CNN, The New York Times, AP, everyone who those women could think of to contact. And what is also sad is that a fellow author, has spoken up and condemned me.
Thanks again for your support. When I am feeling stronger I plan to write a bulletin on My Space, but right now I am totally drained of energy from what has been done to me. I hope that you will tell your friends, who are so much also mine, the wrong that has been done to me, and tell them that I will get through this. I will be found innocent and vendicated of any wrong.
For now, it’s all too raw and horrible, but I will be alright.
Love, Cassie
Jane is a long time romance reader whose passion is, you guessed it, reading. Jane also does not like to talk about herself in the third person, but apparently this is the way that this biography thing works (although in a true biography, someone else would be writing this blurb). Anyway, currently Jane loves urban fantasy authors Patricia Briggs and Ilona Andrews. She's really excited about this year's crop of historicals including Joanna Bourne's The Spymaster's Lady and Sherry Thomas' Private Arrangements and the upcoming Loretta Chase Her Scandalous Ways.
She's looking for a good contemporary author. Email her with a recommendation!
Email this author | All posts by Jane
(The stuff in brackets is mine…as if you needed to be told that.)
Holy jamoly. Could that statement really be from Cassie Edwards? This is becoming bizarre to the -nth degree.
LOL! The best line of all, “I am totally drained of energy from what has been done to me”. Man, that is priceless. I almost hope that it isn’t her letter. She really can’t be in this much denial, can she?
Thank goodness someone had the decency to contact Ms Edwards and wish her well, considering the strain she is under. Despite the allegations against Ms Edwards, I too, wish her well and hope she can keep her health under the bombardment of ill-mannered, thoughtless, callous and cruel people who have nothing better to do with their time.
Smart Bitches could have said it once and left it at that. But, no. And now, Jane, you are continuing where they left off.
I am not condoing any person who commits plagiarism or copyright infringement; but there is a proper venue for dealing with this. Not here, where you are promoting a public witch-hunt.
Jane, since you like to feel useful and give your opinions on writing and writers, perhaps you can complete a plagiarism search on each and every one of the books you have reviewed. That way, no one will be able to say that you were prejudiced against Ms Edwards. It will help outsiders to understand why Americans like to be known for their equality – now is your chance to prove it.
I agree with Jenny Crusie’s comment on Smart Bitches: “Did Cassie Edwards run over your dog?”
I second it with: “Do you have to flog a dead horse?”
So now it’s racism?
Geez.
I wonder how her grandma would feel about her stealing from other Native American writers.
I just jumped onto CE’s MySpace page and noticed that her last blog entry was on September 20, 2006 to celebrate the occasion of her 100th published work. Here’s a sentence from that post:
“I only write Indian books now and I make certain that all of the research that I use in my books is authentic and interesting.”
Good lord, the irony…
What I found particularly dismaying was that a lovely Cherokee man, who was one of the commenters on this post, praised CE to the skies for her “accomplishment” and further wrote, “You give honor to my people and I give thanks for the research to the truth that you incorporate within your books about the customs and ways of Native American life.”
I’m tellin’ ya, it about made me want to cry.
Barbara, witch hunt implies that there are no facts supporting the ‘allegations.’ Take a minute, breathe, read the side by side comparisons, and then say again that this is witch hunting. Please.
Second, what is the proper way of dealing with this? Silence? Leaving it in the hands of Ms Edwards and her publisher?–who, goodness knows, will of course be eager to find all the instances in which Ms Edwards lifted other people’s hard crafted words in order to sell them as her original work. Indded. /sarcasm
I for one am thankful that this conversation is continuing, publicly. Hopefully public shame will be a good enough deterrent for any people who think that plagiarizing is a good writing technique.
While I have never read a Cassie Edwards book, I must say this:
Copying any other author’s work word for word is plagiarism plain and simple.
It doesn’t matter if you say you did for good reason, you took what some other author created and passed it off as your own. Other historical authors (fiction, romance, mystery, sci-fi/fantasy) do research, however, they take their research and incorporate it into their own work in their own words, often with footnote, bibliographies, etc. This kind of wholesale plagiarism isn’t just unethical, it’s lazy.
Up until this point, I only condemned Ms. Edwards’s actions. I’ll hate a book, but I’ll never hate the author. Not anymore.
But I have a sick feeling this situation will turn out like the Janet Dailey situation and her writing career won’t even be dented.
Ya know… at this point, I feel the need to bow out of this. I’ve stated my opinions and nothing about my opinions will change regardless of what else arises.
While I definitely am curious as to what comes of this issue regarding the publisher, etc, I don’t want to add to any fuel to a fire that’s already got plenty.
But I do feel the need to point out that this issue has brought a whole hell of a lot of attention to the romance genre. How we carry on from here is up to us. Making fun, making light or mocking CE at this point doesn’t improve the way the romance genre will be seen.
I’d already mentioned that I feel some pity for CE, not over her being caught, and not because she’s the subject of some very blunt, brutal attention. In doing what she’s done, she opened herself for it, IMO.
However, outsiders might not see it that way. They may see this as a bitchfest where we’ve gone coyote on something not around to defend themselves.
I do not regret that the plagiarism was brought into the public view. Wrong is wrong and when it’s discovered, it shouldn’t be hidden. But mocking and poking fun of the wrong doer doesn’t take the wrong away. It doesn’t lessen the wrong, and it doesn’t soothe or take away any slights that wrong caused.
Open discussion is all well and good, but I don’t see much else that can come from this particular incident.
You know, at this point, I do agree that some of this feels a tad like flogging the already deceased equine, but…
She cannot really be bringing racism into this, can she? If that’s really what Ms. Edwards said, any sympathy I might have had is now gone. I just… can’t believe she would have the audacity to compare her situation to the persecution of Native Americans.
*boggles*
Shiloh, you’ve said a mouthful. Brava.
My focus now is definitely on how the three publishers involved on Edwards’s end handle this responsibility. But I also think that one of the reasons this has been soooooooo discussed and posted about is because of the resistance initially from Signet and from those hating on the SBs and Nora Roberts and from those defending or excusing the examples posted. I know a lot of those things have created a strong sense of disbelief in me, and I think in general that some of the energetic searching and posting of more Edwards books comes from this place of, ‘well, if that’s not enough for you to take this seriously, how about THIS? AND THIS?? AND IF I YELL LOUDLY ENOUGH WILL YOU FINALLY TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY, DAMMIT?!’ That, combined with a sense that it’s only the persistent pressure that has gotten at least Signet to take a second look has, IMO, created this sense of overkill people might be getting.
Hopefully the publishers will seriously follow up with this, and hopefully this issue will prompt some search for unified clarity in regard to the use and abuse of secondary sources in Romance fiction.
Good lord. Cassie, meet Lania. It’s the same old thing whenever they’re caught. And then people start feeling sorry for them.
So what are you saying Barbara, just be quiet now and let it blow over? Because that’s what will happen if you take it behind closed doors. Let someone else deal with it so we don’t “look bad”? As if it’s Smart Bitches’ and DA’s fault that it happened. So another person will do it in 6 months and use the same old excuses, knowing that the romance community will shout for a week and then it will be hugs all around?
Sorry, but I think it’s time that plagiarists get a message that crying and whining won’t get them out of it and that there are people who will hold them accountable. And it’s time too that their supporters wised up and realized that letting this continue is a bad thing for romance all around.
See she lost me when she have the unmitigated gall to compare what she is going through to the rape, kidnapping, murder and cultural destruction Natives have and continue to go through. I know she’s old but come on she should have never wrote such stupidity.
You know, I do wish her well. I wish her all the best emotional support, and legal support.
I also hope that all of her books containing plagiarized material are pulled from the shelves. I hope that any publisher thinks ten thousand times before publishing another book she’s written or offering another contract–and that if they do, it’s not just because her name is money in the bank. I hope that any reader who is aware of books containing plagiarized material won’t buy them. And I hope that any author whose material was lifted receives, at the very least, an acknowledgment and apology.
Those hopes aren’t mutually exclusive.
Yeah, because, like Insulted Native wrote, Cassie Edwards is experiencing the VERY SAME shame and degradation that Native Americans experienced. THE VERY SAME, I tell you… because being exposed as a plagiarist is JUST AS BAD as having your culture ripped out from under you, rape, murder, torture, being treated like a fifth-class citizen (whoops, did I say CITIZEN there, you dirty Injun?), and then being insulted by the appearance of the Noble Savage, where your culture’s only purpose is to produce sidekicks for the noble, lily-white hero of whatever television show. She’s SUFFERING, dogdammit, and you should feel BAD that you brought one of Native America’s most meticulous researchers to her one-eighth Cherokee knees.
As bizarre and sad as this whole thing has become…..I think that letter is a fake. I just can’t see Ms. Edwards, who so far has let her husband comment on her behalf, getting on MySpace and writing a letter that echoes most of the sentiments her fangirls have expressed on both DA and SBTN.
Since her MySpace page and her fan club page both pointedly tell visitors not to bother emailing Ms. Edwards, why would she “just get on her MySpace page” (that hasn’t been updated since 2006), to read letters? Especially when she is totally drained of energy?
Foul ball.
“Do you have to flog a dead horse?”
The horse is not dead, particularly since more horses are being discovered regularly. And the one riding them is denying responsibilty and blaming others.
It’ll never be dead, for me, as long as anyone claims that revealing plagiarism publicly and objecting to it is a witch hunt.
Laura, I hope you’re proved right.
Then again, why would her main web page at cassieedwards.com have been changed so radically in recent days that it’s now merely a redirect to her My Space page? There used to be a lot more content at the main web page, but the only thing left now is the redirect. She may not have posted anything to her MySpace blog recently, but the system shows she’s been logging in.
If it were a fake MySpace page, her legit web page would not have been changed this past week to point to it, unless someone is hacking her online presence in multiple places.
I don’t know if the letter is a fake or not. I hope so.
I’ve emailed both a contact for Ms. Edwards and the “lisa” for confirmation or denial.
I now feel strangely compelled to burst into song
88 horses more in the barn
88 horses more in the barn
to very annoying tune.
Here is why it is not beating a dead horse. It is clear from comments all over the internet that there is a fundamental misunderstanding regarding what is acceptable use of someone else’s words, whether it be fiction or non fiction. The continued discussion of this matter can only serve to educate everyone.
The horse isn’t dead if it is still saying it did nothing wrong.
I don’t like personal attacks at all. But if this doesn’t continue until either the writer or the publisher admit the facts, what was the point?
I think that by openly discussing this serious issue brings more credence to the often mocked romance genre. If we as fans and as writers simply take a laid back “oops bad girl, but here have a hug” approach then we’re simply sending the message that we dont take our genre seriously.
Personal attacks are of course uncalled for; however, simply acknowledging facts is not a witch hunt. Discussing how we feel about the situation is not IMHO beating a dead horse. It’s only through standing up as a community to this sort of behavior that change will occur. And some people need more time to digest the situation and comment on it than others.
If this is allowed to go unpunished then what is next? Maybe I’ll just take an authors work and claim it as my own. Maybe a new title will be enough? It’s more a question of where is the line drawn. If we don’t take the romance genre seriously who will?
Would people be so quick to hush hush and “protect” the supposed offender if the author in question was Tom Clancy? How about Steven King? Just because its romance doesn’t mean we should sit and be quiet about it.
Should we just all sit and crochet some doilies instead?
It’s painful to watch such a sad drama happen in my beloved genre. I’m eager for the day that this is resolved and we can all once again talk about our latest favorite novel.
Assuming that letter is authentic — and I seriously hope it’s not — it’s just one more instance of an author who was caught at plagiarism and Not Getting It. Ms. Edwards is certainly not the only one to continue insisting she’s done nothing wrong when it’s very clear that she has, and all the people showing “support” by joining in the chorus of “That’s not plagiarism!” or “It’s only a romance novel!” or “How dare they all be so meeean to her?!” aren’t helping. “Supporting” Ms. Edwards in her belief that she’s done nothing wrong is not helping her, and won’t bring the incident to a close any sooner. The only way this is going to wrap up and be done with is if Ms. Edwards realizes what she’s done wrong, accepts that it was wrong, apologizes, and promises not to do it again. (Knowing that there’ll likely be people scrutinizing anything she publishes from now on should make that last one easy.) But the longer she denies wrongdoing, the longer she maintains her personal indignation, the longer the whole mess is going to drag on.
I can’t imagine anyone wants that, and it certainly wouldn’t be good for anyone, least of all Ms. Edwards. Better for everyone (including her) for her to get it as soon as possible. I doubt very much at this point that everyone just backing off and being “nice” and letting it all die down quietly is going to do anything to help her get it.
We’re way beyond the point of this being some sort of misunderstanding; backing up isn’t an option anymore. The only way out is through. I hope we make it out the other side as soon as possible, for everyone’s sake.
Angie
Here is why it is not beating a dead horse.
A lot of the DA posts about plagiarism in Cassie Edward’s books have made me think - the original posts, Signet’s original response, RWA’s original response, Jane’s letter to Penguin, Robin’s posts. The post last night on instances of copying from “Laughing Boy” left me as saddened as many of the commenters.
But I wish that DA had been clear about this post. It is NOT a letter from Edward’s site (which has no content at the moment) or her myspace page. It is a letter from another myspace page and it may or may not be genuine.
If the goal is to keep the issue active, I would prefer a countdown on the time it takes for a publisher response - 7 days and still no response from Dorchester. Signet/Penguin are taking a second look at the books they publish - how long will we wait for a definitive response. What about the RWA - are they re-evaluating Edward’s postion - how long will we wait for a definitive response from them.
I can tell you the due diligence takes time. It must be thorough, it must be equitable. So I wouldn’t expect any statement from the publishers quickly. Quick isn’t the priority. There also seems to be legalities now, as some instances of infringement have been cited. This, too, will take time to sort out.
As for RWA, she isn’t a member, and no member–as far as is known–has been plagiarized here. So they have nothing to do except wait for a decision or a statement before they could or would (I think) take action on the single point of CE’s Honor Roll mention.
A count-down (or in this case ‘up’) would be a useful place-holder to demonstrate sustained interest without necessarily adding new material to the discussion.
As a reader, I find this troubling. If it were a sci-fi author accused of plagiarism, would how sci-fi fans react to the news be such a huge cause for concern? Because romance is targeted to (mainly) women, we should censor ourselves so that people don’t get the wrong idea? We should tread on egg shells lest someone think we’re bitchy and mean? The whole idea of that is repugnant. I don’t *care* what people who are already prone to look down on the romance genre think. As a reader who has paid money for Cassie Edwards’ books–lots and lots of money, because she has tons of books in print and my elderly mother loves her–I have the right to be pissed off at someone who has, in effect, ripped me off.
The issue doesn’t end at the fact that she wronged her fellow authors. She has also wronged every person who paid for one of her books. She’s made money, tons of money (look how many books she’s sold!) by CONNING her readers.
That’s why this statement–”I don’t see much else that can come from this particular incident”–just doesn’t wash for me. Maybe not much else can come from this for YOU, but for ME, I want to know how deep the plagiarism goes. I want to know what actions her publishers are taking. I want to know that they’re taking steps to rectify this situation. I want to know that she’s not going to be allowed to continue ripping us off.
Do I trust the publishers to do all these things without pressure from the public? I think Signet’s initial response to the Smart Bitches answers that question. It’s blogs like these that are keeping the publishers accountable.
As a reader, I hope that blogs like Dear Author and Smart Bitches don’t decide to “play nice” and let this go.
Yes, due diligence takes time; a hasty response from Signet/Penguin would be counter-productive. I am disappointed that none of Edwards’ other publishers have issued any kind of statement.
My thought about a countdown timer was not to imply any requirement for haste; it was more as a reminder that the issue is still open and some readers will wait and expect a definitive statement from Edwards’ publishers.
That being said, I’m still uncomfortable with this post by DA because it is not clear that Edwards is the author of the letter.
LinM, the heading says “possible Cassie Edwards bulletin”–which is what this is. There’s also a link to the place–at the SBs–where it was first publicly aired. Why does that make you uncomfortable? This letter/statement/whatever is floating around the internets and someone is claiming that Cassie Edwards wrote it. Neither Dear Author nor the Smart Ladies have proof one way or the other, and so they reproduce it with the appropriate caveat.
Better we as readers and writers within the romance genre expose one of our own than someone outside the genre bringing these allegations to light. So far, I haven’t read anything that “mocks” CE in the posts here at DA or SB. Okay, I’ll concede the comments, but not the informative posts themselves. But you can bet your bottom dollar if this story broke outside the circle of romance readers and authors, there’d be mocking galore, and perhaps we as authors would have an even harder hill to climb to gain back the scraps of our respect within the industry.
Discussions like these bring change and education on what is right and wrong. At this point, this situation has escalated far beyond CE, and into the realm of what is and isn’t considered plagiarism. Perhaps it will prompt publishing houses and associations like RWA to crack down and create harsher policies for these kinds of infringements.
If CE didn’t know what she was doing was plagiarism, then I’d be willing to bet all 100 or so of her books has lifted passages from her research. As a community, we have *got* to do something. We can’t sweep it under the rug and expect the problem to “go away” or “work itself out”. When a community as a whole demands a change, things are bound to get “loud”, and only when things get loud do big corporations (like Penguin) listen.
~~Becka
Mora, I’m only responding because it seems I’ve given you the impression that I’m trying to sweep this under the rug. Since I’ve been all but obsessed with this issue since it came out, I can honestly say that isn’t the case. At all. But I am getting tired of the drama, and my own obsession with it.
The point of my post was that at some point, we do need to sit back and see what happens and focus on educating people in hopes that something similar doesn’t happen.
Actually finding every last bit of evidence could take months. Longer. Resolutions will most certainly take more than a few days~ NR mentioned that due diligence will be displayed on the part of the publishers… and that diligence takes time. I hate to think this and this alone is going to be the focus for the online romance community while we wait for those resolutions.
If there is more evidence discovered, yes, I think readers deserve to know.
Regarding images, yes, as an author, I do worry about image, not so much because I care that much what the opinions of those who don’t ‘get’ the genre and never will. But because a lot of those people may very well get it, but not if they don’t give it a chance. In this situation, anything other than rational commentary isn’t like to bring that about.
The romance genre is constantly getting new readers, people who hadn’t ever romance before but something compelled them to give it a chance and now they adore it. People unfamiliar with the genre might get a bit curious, check it out, try it, fall in love… but they are less likely to do that if they perceive something to be a huge bitchfest.
I am NOT saying that’s what this is, that’s why this started. I see legit complaints from readers, from authors, from bloggers and I’ve voiced more than a few of my own. I firmly believe that the SBs did right bringing this to light. I firmly believe that the DA ladies are right when they say plagiarism needs to be discussed, that education is needed. I also believe CE needs to take responsibility for what she did.
So hiding this isn’t what I want at all. What I’d like is to see something positive come from this. Considering the attention this has gotten, there’s no reason it can’t benefit the romance genre in a variety of ways. If more readers gave the romance genre a chance, that would be a huge benefit to readers and writers alike. I’m all for doing things that could benefit the genre which means I’m for promoting a positive image of the genre.
I won’t pretend otherwise, I do think authors need to focus on image. Romance, sci fi, western, non-fic, it doesn’t matter. They need to focus on professionalism. Had CE done this, this whole mess never would have happened, because a true professional wouldn’t plagiarize.
I never once said that DA and SB should ‘play nice’. ‘Playing nice’ is often a waste of time. I’ve stated several times in several different threads and on several different blogs that I’ll take an ugly truth over a pretty lie any day of the week.
I don’t want the issue of plagiarism swept under the rug. I want authors educated on it. I want readers to understand why it is a big deal. I’ve privately emailed RWA about this, I’ve emailed my thoughts on it to Jane, I’ve posted my opinions on my own blog and I’ve discussed it in forums where mine certainly didn’t appear to be the popular opinion.
But playing the devil’s advocate, posting in a bulletin that may or may not be from CE, what does that accomplish? I won’t say that it shouldn’t have been done. This isn’t my blog and how the DA ladies choose to run it is up to them. I just fail to see what it accomplished.
The sly jabs, some of the subtle and not so subtle insults, what does they accomplish except to inflame people? That isn’t the way to finding any sort of solution and it certainly isn’t going to convince CE to step up to the plate and apologize.
I think what most people in general want a solution. They do want to know how far this goes, but they also want to think of a way to keep it from happening again. That’s more likely to happen through educating writers and readers alike on the issue of plagiarism. Again… I very much want to issue itself to be discussed.
My gut instinct when I read the Myspace message was that a reader did it. A lot of us have heard how some people will spam the ‘competition’ at places like Amazon and leave nasty reviews and then point to their fave instead. Doing so is justified in their minds because they see themselves as ’supporting’ their faves. Knowing this, it’s no stretch of the imagination to think that somebody other than CE wrote that bulletin to garner sympathy. And I’m entirely aware that I could be mistaken. But regardless, what did it accomplish?
I’m a goal-oriented person~I’m going to do what is needed to reach a goal not because I’m organized or anything, but because, honestly, I’m lazy and I’m not going to mess with the things that aren’t important to the task itself. I certainly see the bulletin as something not so important to the issue. Even if CE wrote it, all it does is show a lack of accountability and nothing any of us can say will change that. Only she can make that decision and insults, jabs, they aren’t the things to move somebody to taking accountability.
I hoped I’ve explained this a little better. Knitting doilies, putting on a ladylike pretense when I’m not a lady and don’t care to be, hiding ugly truths, that isn’t the message I wanted to get across.
And with that… I really do plan to stop participating in the discussions centered around CE. As I said, I’m getting tired of reading nothing but what CE did, how wrong it was. Most of us know it was wrong and we are frustrated and upset by it.
But I’d rather focus on educating people so that we maybe we can prevent similar occurrences.
To the Ja(y)nes, I hope I haven’t given you the impression that you just need to play nice. One of the reasons I love this blog is the open and honest discussions, the reviews, the opinions. If you started playing nice, a lot of those discussions, reviews and opinions would disappear. I don’t want that in any way.
Why is this different when a woman author is involved? Did anyone cry, “Oh, poor James Frey” when he was caught making up shit for his “autobiography”. Did he complain about what was being “done to him”?
Jeez, why can’t anybody admit they were wrong anymore? Say I’m sorry, I’ll do my best to fix this, and it won’t happen again. If you don’t, you just end up looking like a bigger a-hole in the end.
BTW, I don’t think anyone would be calling this a “witch hunt” if a male author was involved who wrote say, science fiction and a sci-fi reader blog broke the story. Just sayin…
I’m not going to defend the insults hurled at Edwards personally. But I can tell you that this whole incident and its aftermath has caused me a bit of a crisis of faith regarding the Romance community, from publishers to authors. So whenever I see an author making a statement that it’s not okay to copy sources into one’s book, or to copy material from, say, a Pulitzer Prize winning memoir or a novel, I think, “good, I’m not wasting my time and money reading books written and published by people who don’t care about intellectual honesty.” That might seem harsh, but there it is. So I don’t want to see this conversation disappear completely, or for things to go back to business as usual.
As for posting this alleged Edwards statement — why did PW link to it, as well? One great reason I can think of to post it is because it creates an opportunity for rebuttal and correction should it be inauthentic. But in this instance, a “no comment” was issued when a direct attempt was made to confirm or deny its veracity with an Edwards rep. So as of now, at least, it stands as all we have, with no refutation from the Edwards camp.
Shiloh Walker said,
I think that there are many more people with the same point of view as you, Shiloh, than are posting here. And we are getting heat too, for trying to point out the difference between researching and cut/paste.
Robin said,
Neither do I, because this instance of plagiarism has highlighted how often readers don’t know–or understand–the difference.
What really bothers me is the “Romance is a sisterhood and we should all stick together” mentality. Sisterhood is fine, but when one of the sisters does wrong, I would hope that the others would call her on it. I have two sisters and I know that when I do wrong, they call me on it. Same thing if I think they’re doing something wrong. What Cassie Edwards did was wrong. The Ja(y)nes, SB Sarah, and Candy have done nothing wrong in bringing the wrong actions to light. It has nothing to do with them not liking the books. It’s about Cassie Edwards being wrong.
When a thief is on the prowl, good friends alert their neighbors, in order to protect their treasures.
This has happened before. It will happen again, unless we remain vigilant.
Thank you for being good friends, good neighbors, to the reading and writing community.
Ruth Ryan Langan
Ruth, wonderfully said.
This is why I love you.
I’ve never read a Cassie Edwards’ work, nor will I ever after this shameful turn of events. I think those who may be wishing her well during what has got to be one of the worst moments in her professional life (if not THE worst in her ENTIRE life), may be doing so due in part to the way the SB have handled this since they discovered it. In one of Jane’s earlier posts on this subject, she commented that some have suggested the allegations against CE lack some credibility because of how the SB’s have criticized her in the past. I disagreed with that, but I commented that I quit reading the SB’s because I found their “reviews” to be more attack-like and less objective critiques. A lot of folks said they disagreed with me and had never seen the SB personally attack an author and mocked me for not being able to provide the links to support my assertions-a shortfall on my part, no doubt.
While the debate that this turn of events had engendered is terrific and needs to be kept up among writers, readers, and publishers as to what constitutes plagiarism and how it should be handled by the publishing community, I’m not sure what purpose it serves to continually attack Edwards, which seems to be what the SBs continue to do. While Edwards absolutely deserves whatever happens to her as a result of this, the longer this continues by the SB, the more it looks like a personal vendetta and less of objective journalistic blogging.
I agree with Ruth that we need to vigilant to protect against plagiarism and publicize it when it is found, but it seems to be that doing that in a forthright, objective manner serves the romance community far better than continuing to write about the same author’s transgressions day in and day out.
I’m not sure I can believe what I’m reading, here.
Research is fine. Nobody is denying that.
But most of us learn in grade school that “copying other peoples’ work verbatim into mine” is not the same as “research.”
She copied. She stole. She’s only upset about being called on it because she knows she did something she shouldn’t have.
Cassie is a liar, a thief, and a plagiarist, and she has no business making money off other writers’ words.
I’ve been following this, as many of my friends have, since the news broke. I’ve been very cheered by those who are taking a public stand against plagiarism and copyright infringement, and saddened by those who don’t seem to understand that stealing is wrong.
As a writer, I can only say that anyone who deliberately copies whole chunks of information verbatim from another source and claims it as his or her own is guilty of plagiarism, possibly copyright infringement, and most certainly theft.
And there is no excuse for stealing someone else’s work. None.
~I’m not sure what purpose it serves to continually attack Edwards, which seems to be what the SBs continue to do.~
I guess I need you to show me the personal attacks–if you mean from Candy and/or Sarah. As far as opinions, or how they’re expressed, by commentors on their blog, or any blog–that’s on the commentor.
I note, in fact, that both Candy and Sarah have specifically urged posters to lay off the personal. What else could they do?
I think the discussions have been very professional–not personal at all. I have seen extremely personal attacks made on this author on other sites over the years–this is not one of them.
objective journalistic blogging
Um wow, you actually read the name of the site?
It says Smart Bitches That Love Trashy Books.
Not Wall Street Journal or New York Times so I think they are meeting my expectations as far as being fair but honest.
I mean, since your expectations seem to be a little high next to the actual type of reviews they write which are fairly objective and quite informative next to say Romantic Times, but then you can’t buy their favorable reviews by buying ad space.
Courtney Carroll said,
It would seem, to me at least, that you haven’t read the post by SBSarah and Candy themselves, nor their comments in the ensuing thread discussions. Because if you had done that you would know that neither of them has attacked Ms Edwards.
As far as
Well… let me make a clumsy comparison. Let’s say the police discover evidence of a robbery. They pinpoint who the thief is. Should they stop investigating this person to see if there is evidence of more robberies? And, if more evidence shows up, should the police stop then? Cause it’s not the same transgression–is a series of robberies going on for, apparently, more than two decades.
Gee Courtney Carroll,
You would not happen to be a reviewer for Romantic Times would you?
I want to personally and very publicly thank Nora Roberts for her personal strength in putting herself and her own traumatic experience in having to deal with the theft of her intellectual property out there yet again because, sadly, here we go again.
“No cheating! Eyes on your own paper!” We all heard those words in grammar school.
Plagiarism, copyright infringement, are placing your *hands* on someone else’s hard work and putting your own name on it, selling it, taking the money, the acclaim, the credit. It’s cheating the original writer, it’s cheating the reader.
We’re not in grammar school anymore.
Kasey Michaels
So, let me get this straight in my head, they’re supposed to stop reporting an author’s transgressions after how many books are found? What exactly is the limit per author? Just for future reference.
That I know of I have never read Edwards so don’t look at me as having any motives except complete and utter fascination over the very idea that there might be a limit anyone should stop at if there is actually more evidence out there.
This is not the same thing as dragging an author’s personal life into the spotlight, people.
This is literally about what’s in the books themselves.
What an author put there and claimed as their own wordcraft.
Do we or do we not have a right to know the truth about that?
LOL. It’s interesting to me that I’m getting this much flack for an author I’ve never even read and could not care any less about. I’ll respond to the comments in turn.
NR, azteclady, Bev-of course I’ve read the SB’s CE posts which has pained me every time. I swore a long time ago that I wouldn’t return to their website as their “critiques” repulse me on the most basic cerebral level. Their language (in general) is atrocious and it’s hard for me to take them seriously because of it. My point with the above post was that the readers I know who have been following this scandal are sick of the SB’s blogging about it and others, myself included, think it’s time for Penquin to complete its investigation. It’s made the national news (AP, NYT, etc.) and I don’t know what the benefit is for the SBs to continue on with it day after day. Obviously many of you think there is indeed a benefit to it and it may be because Penquin’s initial response was so insufficient that folks think they can only rely on the SBs to continuously unearth more examples of plagiarism. For me personally, it’s repetitive. Once an author has plagiarized and that’s been made public, it doesn’t matter to me whether it was one book or 100 books.
Teddypig-I’m honored you’d suggest I’d be a reviewer for RT. While it read its reviews, I am not a reviewer. Just an avid reader. : )
Dipping into someone’s wallet without permission and taking the contents is called stealing. Dipping into an author’s book and copying the contents without permission is no different.
Except, of course, in the case of the wallet if you can pinpoint the thief and identify the stolen property, and match the fingerprints, something will likely be done about it. This doesn’t seem to be the case with plagiarism. The questions are not just “Why?” but “What can we do about the general indifference to the problem –and “What what can we do to ensure there are consequences?” Many thanks to all of you who are willing to speak out against plagiarism. May your tribes increase.
Courtney, while I understand your position, I have to say I wish I’d had someone like the SBs or DA in my corner when Dailey plagiarized me. The process of vetting the books, unearthing and citing the copying, wading through the morass when so many books are involved is a nightmare.
And it does matter how many times. Again, from my own experience, the number of times, the nature of the copying all goes to pattern.
As Nora said, the number of instances of plagiarism found and detailed speak to pattern, which certainly will be important should any of the authors and publishers plagiarized choose to prosecute.
But that aside, what you view as “repetition” some of us view as “more proof of plagiarism.”
Again, I commend the SBs and others for continuing to dig, especially in the face of criticism.
[...] frustrated. Since I could not say anything nice or helpful, I decided only to leave a comment at Dear Author about my general feelings about plagiarism and leave it at that. I thought that would be sufficient [...]
Nora and Kay-I appreciate the points you make about the pattern and extent of Edwards’ plagiarism. I’m not a writer and I can’t imagine how it must feel to be violated by someone who plagiarizes your work.
My question is how much proof of plagiarism do you need? Do people believe that if there was only evidence of plagiarism in one book that it’s less significant than if it’s found for every single one of her published books? I don’t and that was the point that I was trying to make as a reader.
I don’t ask this to be snarky-I’m honestly interested in people’s responses and hope folks respond.
My take on this: it’s not one party who’s been plagiarized and used. Some–many?–of the people whose hard work has been used for profit don’t have any idea this has come to light. Some because they are dead. Some because their publishers have changed hands or closed down.
Don’t they too deserve justice? Can we readers take it for granted that Ms Edwards’ current and past publishers will hunt down this evidence of plagiarism and make amends of some kind with the original authors?
Just quickly because I don’t have a ton of time, but I think that the instances of wrong doing is as important as the plagiarism itself. If I can refer to the law (I’m sorry, it’s my only frame of reference), the number of bad acts in the law determines the amount of the punishment. A first time offender will get leniency. A repeat offender less. And, unfortunately, there is the three times and you are out rule. So, yes, I do think that we should know and post all of the instances because it provides a measurement of culpability.
I understand the fatigue though. I suffer from it as well and when I have a moment, I plan to make an Edwards tab and the countdown clock as some have suggested so that if there are readers who are fatigued to the point that they just cannot read one more instance about it, they’ll have that choice. I might just put the posts under “Industry News”.
While we deviated from our regular schedule last week, we don’t plan on doing so again because of the Edwards matter other than to post publisher responses, if any, and any possible actions taken in this matter.
I don’t know, Courtney, if it was just an error that you posted above, but I don’t think I ever criticized the SBs for their tone or their posting. I don’t think what they did or how they handled it was inappropriate at all. In fact, given the enormity of what they had in terms of factual evidence and the huge potential for snark, they were really restrained.
Finally, let me state that I think it is so important to keep this issue in the community’s eye because there is obviously a HUGE misunderstanding/misperception/etc. about what is legitimate use of research resources, whether it be fiction or non fiction by both authors and readers. Not so much here but in other threads on other sites.
The fact that it is so misunderstood does spur me to keep writing about it.
I’ve been following this since the story broke and I’m interested to see the range of responses to the story. In my opinion, it’s possible to accidentally incorporate research into your text. Once. More than once, and it turns into deliberate plagiarism. I know some people don’t know the difference.
However, for everyone who’s defending this practice, stop a minute and think. What if it were your work - what if you , or a friend, or an author you admire, had taken the time to research and write something in your own words and then someone else took your work and presented it as their own?
Think about it in this light and see if you feel differently.
Jane-I didn’t mean to imply that you had criticized the SB’s. I thought one of your weekend posts said others, not you or DA, suggested that the SB’s discovery of CE’s plagiarism was undermined by their treatment of her in the past.
~My question is how much proof of plagiarism do you need? Do people believe that if there was only evidence of plagiarism in one book that it’s less significant than if it’s found for every single one of her published books? I don’t and that was the point that I was trying to make as a reader.~
I get that, but it doesn’t necessarily work that way. A writer has a hundred published novels. It’s discovered she copied text in one of them–enough for it to be plagiarism–or infringement. That’s very bad. But people would–most readers, even some other writers, certainly a publisher–say it was only once. A mistake, inadvertant, or just a mental blip.
You find two, it’s hmm. Three, four, five–that’s a pattern. The pattern–and the weight–increases with each incident.
It’s important to find it all. Not just this piece or that piece, but all. If more work is found that’s under copyright, isn’t that publisher, that author entitled to know? And to decide how to proceed?
It could be argued (and I would) that the readers deserve to know. Was it a one-off–that strange and out of character mistake? Or was it a pattern of abuse?
Other writers deserve to know–and to make it clear they don’t approve. To make it clear to those who might be tempted to copy, that it’s wrong.
These blogs give all that a format that didn’t exist when I was dealing with this. Readers and writers can share their thoughts and opinions, educate themselves, debate–the issue.
It should always come back to the issue itself. And, for me, as more and more is uncovered in this case, it simply cements that issue. It removes the possibility of that one slip, that mistake–and shows a pattern that encompasses many books and many years.
Courtney- you are right, I did say that. I don’t agree with the sentiment of others, but I did say it.
Nora and Jane-thanks for your thoughts. I guess numbers do matter in ways that I hadn’t considered.
But I’m back to one of my original questions from last week-what is the punishment now? Return of Edwards’ contract money and royalties? Pulling all books by her from shelves to eliminate the possibility of future sales? It seems very unclear to me what Penguin can and will do.
At the least, I think a public acknowledgment would go a long ways toward making this right. In a perfect world, I would say that the publishers go through all the books and determine what copyrighted works were copied from and if they rise to infringement, that those who hold the copyright be notified and offered some kind of reparation.
The works that contain unattributed public domain copying should be taken from the shelves and revised ones with appropriate attribution be replaced.
Any works that cannot be properly revised to avoid plagiarism should not be reshelved.
This is off the top of my head. I could be convinced one way or another at this point regarding the above.
My husband has asked me this question as well, after listening to me rant. What punishment would suit the crime?
My initial response, Jane, was like yours. That I thought her books should be pulled off shelves and replaced. My DH pointed out that the cost of that sort of endeavor is most likely something that would deter Penguin from going that route. I mean, it would be -very- expensive to reprint and reship all of those books, wouldn’t it? Never mind the fact that bookstores would have to be compliant in replacing them, etc.
So I amended. I personally would like to see an acknowledgement and apology from Ms. Edwards herself. I think Signet making a public statement and acknowledgement would go a long way, too. Going forward, if Ms. Edwards has new releases or if older books are reprinted, I feel acknowledgement pages are important.
Having books with plagiarised content pulled off shelves now wouldn’t be a bad idea, I will admit, but I have no idea how realistic it is.
I can’t imagine CE will be asked, if the publisher finds plagiarism and/or infringement, for advances and royalty returned. I don’t want to speculate on what they may or may not do.
As for infringement, that’s not CE’s publisher’s problem, but hers, if the other authors or publisher elect to pursue.
Totally off-topic, but I couldn’t resist the opportunity to gush like a fangirl for Ruth Ryan Langan.
Ms. Langan, HIGHLAND HEATHER was my very first historical romance and I’ve been hooked ever since.
If the plagiarism all came from a single source, I could see the merit in this argument. But thus far the examples of plagiarized material come from a multitude of sources.
Again using the example of the police catching a robber, if the police found the rental storage unit where a robber stored stolen goods until he could sell them, don’t you think the police have a responsibility to inform the owners of all the stolen goods, not just the first one they happened to notice?
Ann, you sweetie. Thank you for loving my Highland Heather. I did love writing those Scottish Highland historicals.
You can be my fan-girl any time you choose. You just made my day.
Ruth Ryan Langan
Oh, and Nora, honey, I wuv you too.
Ruth
Ideally as a reader, I’d ultimately like to see a comprehensive listing of all books by the author that were “copied” from other sources. The problem with waiting around for a legal solution to a situation like this to resolve itself is that lawyers and the courts are notoriously slow at doing their jobs. (No offense to any present company. ;p) Even then, when and if that part of the equation ever does get taken care of, there’ll be absolutely no guarantee that we as readers will get that information anyway. Certainly not totally. Most likely only in bits and pieces.
So, if we want the total picture, we dig it out for ourselves.
Excellent points made above by Nora and Tasha (and others) regarding the fact that the victims of Edwards’ plagiarism have the right to know about it. This discussion makes me wonder what, if any precautions, publishers take regarding their authors plagiarizing. Is it on the honor system where the author represents that his/her manuscript is completely her own?
what is the punishment now?
Well, that would have to be the lawyers and the publishers and the writers involved decision right? Once they know they have become included in the group she ripped off.
I’m not sure what purpose it serves to continually attack Edwards, which seems to be what the SBs continue to do.
I do not think that Smart Bitches or any of the people providing the “service” of investigating (Not attacking) or finding these cut and paste incidents in all the books they have covered so far can say what the punishment will or should be. That asks for an experienced legal judgment of some type of court based on the laws in question. They are just keeping the general public informed of the findings since after almost 100 books no one else noticed this so the whole event reflects there being so many books to look at.
~Is it on the honor system where the author represents that his/her manuscript is completely her own?~
We sign a contract that clearly states we are providing the publisher with original work. It is–or at least any that I’ve signed–very specifically worded. The publisher pays us for that original work.
They can’t possibly vet and check every book they publish–thousands of books. A contract should be enough to insure all parties adhere to the terms therein.
To my mind, when the author does not provide original work, as contracted, the publisher is also a victim.
Because most authors also sign an indemnification clause, in addition to warranting the originality of their manuscript, the accused author usually bears the greatest brunt of any plagiarism lawsuit. (This will vary depending on the author’s clout.) Publishers often reserve the right to sue or to settle the suit on their own, and then may charge the author for all (or a portion) of the legal costs. This can be exceedingly expensive for the author and yet totally out of his/her control. However, in an instance in which the author refuses to admit fault and wants to drag out a lawsuit, the publisher thus has the power to just stop the dance, and settle.
So in this case, if 100 authors have been plagiarized and choose to sue, the publishers involved might see that they can’t win, settle with the victims, and then hand Cassie Edwards the bill. I’m not saying that her contracts are all written like that. But they could be.
Thus every instance of plagiarism must be publicized, because each one builds the case for the next. Plus, if your thing is writing about ferrets, you aren’t looking on romance writing web sites for news of being plagiarized. You aren’t a member of the (useless) RWA. Only when the news hits the mainstream media will you find out what has been done to you.
The more we talk truth, cite the specifics, find more evidence, the more good we do.
I so, so agree with this.
We have to keep talking about plagiarism and copyright infringement, here and elsewhere. Because far too many people cheerfully “trading content” on the Internet have no understanding of what defines intellectual property, or why it’s wrong to “share” without permission.
And far too many who certainly should understand, IMO, seem willing to find or accept excuses for an act, a practice, that is simply inexcusable.
Also because there is a misunderstanding–or utter lack of knowledge–of what is appropriate attribution in fiction.
I’ve participated in at least one online discussion in which some of the individuals don’t see a difference between research and plagiarism. Scary to say the least.
Heck, it literally boggles my mind what some seem to think counts as paraphrasing. Seems to me, if writers don’t know how to do that properly, there’s no way to avoid more serious problems ultimately.
Like many others, I’ve been following this whole plagiarism debacle though I haven’t commented much. I do wish that the internet and reader support had been there when Nora Roberts went through her struggle. Every time I see a Janet Daily book on the shelves I get angry, angry that a thief is still allowed to flourish, angry her books are still available, and angry that Ms. Roberts was critizised for speaking up. The whole community needs to stand up against this because it IS wrong. It is unethical to the utmost and it should not be tolerated. I’m glad that SB’s and DA are shining the light.
Actually, they might be able to, thanks to some new software that is available.
My husband is the network administrator for a small university. They recently installed software that allows instructors & professors to feed suspect papers into algorithm checking routines and have them compared for similarities in verbiage & grammar to existing works. The local university here is 5 to 15 years behind in such technology, as we understand it. Many major universities have had such things available for some time.
Perhaps the publishing industry needs to join education in looking for ways to assure they are getting original work, not that which has been plagarized or recycled.
Maybe I’m just being non-techno savvy, but I honestly can’t see a major publishing house–Penguin alone has more imprints than I can think of–running thousands of mss through software. Many mss with many hundreds of pages each.
One day, maybe. But at this point in time, it’s in no way practical. Remember, you’d have fiction, non-fiction, self-help books, children’s books, hard cover, mm originals, trade paperbacks, cook books, biographies, short story collections, anthologies and much more. Thousands.
Anyone here ever attended a BEA? The annual book convention. It fills the convention center of a major city with books. And not every publisher attends, and those who do wouldn’t have titles of every book they’d publish that year.
This is only one more reason writers need to understand what constitutes plagiarism and/or infringement. Good research vs copying. And giving their word on the legal document of a contract.
Every writer who says it’s no big deal, or it’s non-fiction and so what, or other excuses casts a shadow on all of us.
From my inbox:
SAVAGE OBSESSION
Page 284 (pg 434 in Large Type edition)
The odors of the forest, the dew and damp meadow, and the curling smoke from the wigwams were left behind as Lorinda [...]
HIAWATHA by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:
Lines 3-5 of the Introduction
With the odors of the forest,
With the dew and damp of meadows,
With the curling smoke of wigwams
From Nikki the Super Badass Researcher
I just posted this on the SB Blog, and I’m posting it here. I asked my 73 year old mother (who is a high school drop out) if I could copy a few paragraphs from a book and pass it off as my own. She answered, “No, you’ll go to jail for doing something like that.” I then asked her, what is it called if I do something like that? She answered, “Plagiarism.”
So see? Even a 73 year old high school drop out knows it is illegal.
Nobody is going to tell me they think it’s okay, it’s just research, it’s just paraphrazing to take Longfellow’s poetry and pass it off as your prose.
I call serious bullshit.
Oh, my word. Un-be-lieve-able. Is this some weird twilight zone we’ve fallen into?
Yeah, what Nora said. In spades.
From the varied comments about my previous post, it is apparent that most misunderstood my words, or chose to misunderstand them. Plagiarism is very serious, as is copyright infringement.
Azteclady, Jan, Shiloh: I have no objection to people commenting on something they feel adverse to, such as the topic of plagiarism as it allegedly relates to Cassie Edwards. Before you or other readers go off on your vehement tangents of protest about the term “allegation” in relation to the damaging comparisons, it is exactly that. All the comparisons at this point are allegations, as they have not been proven in a court of competent jurisdiction. The majority of the concerned commenters here will disagree with me, however, to consider anything otherwise is tantamount to a growing pack of wild dogs set upon tearing apart someone who allegedly made several serious mistakes with their writing practices.
One cannot say unequivocally that Cassie Edwards used plagiarism in her books, either verbally or in print. This also applies to these comments by Anna: “Cassie is a liar, a thief, and a plagiarist, and she has no business making money off other writers’ words.” What you say may be true, but you cannot state them nor write them. To do so, one may meet legal ramnifications of a costly nature. It is quite appropriate to say alleged to avoid an appearance in court. You notice that Jane uses the word “alleged” in the title of this blog entry? It is for the same reason explained above. But, eventually, justice will be served at its appointed time.
I do not condone the behaviour of people who as Shiloh so aptly put it: “Making fun, making light or mocking CE at this point doesn’t improve the way the romance genre will be seen…outsiders might not see it that way. They may see this as a bitchfest where we’ve gone coyote on something…” The behaviour shown by the commentary of people on Dear Author and Smart Bitches gives a very poor example to outsiders, more specifically, those who are not Americans and not living in the United States. It is this behaviour I alluded to in the comment: “Why are you flogging a dead horse?” Repeated callous comments and personal attacks on Ms Edwards are not the way to endear others to your cause; certainly not mine.
Nor do I condone the behaviour of Sarah and Candy at “Smart Bitches” for rallying the audience into a frenzy by promoting public humiliation and shame through the contact of various sources including the media. That is malicious behaviour. I briefly took a look at their site earlier, only to notice they had removed their own contemptuous comments from the blog posts about Cassie Edwards. Perhaps they have a legal adviser; and they are hoping no one printed out the pages containing their comments. There was one phrase in particular that I took note of, as it was made the day after I had posted a comment.
With respect to the publisher, Penguin, in this instance, will have to implement new measures and/or new clauses in their author contracts, as well as taking a thorough internal examination of their editing practices. Someone at Penguin ought to have noticed the change in tone of the writing style when it was so apparent to the reader. Any experienced editor would have noticed the writing was not “smooth” in style. All publishers have editors to modify an author’s book to some degree before it is published.
In closing, all those who are concerned about plagiarism and how it affects writers of any genre should be writing letters or contacting their affiliated writing associations and publishing houses to ensure changes are made. Continued discussions are fine, and I agree with Jane that by addressing them it will allow a better understanding by others of how not to misuse words in either fiction or non-fiction published works and passing them off as original work in their own.
Longfellow?!? Is nothing sacred to this woman? Or does she think since he’s dead, he can’t defend his work so she’d get away with it?
I can’t follow this debacle anymore. It’s too disheartening and my head’s hurting.
I’m just going to wait for the verdict from the publishers–and hope they rise above my cynical opinion of them and their business practices.
Oh, my … Longfellow? Hiawatha?
This just jumped into seriously bizarre territory. And I’m also starting to wonder — what percentage of the prose in each book is lifted? And to fit all of that lifted material into a plot … how long did it take to find the right passages each time? It actually seems easier to write your own books than do that much reading and to find the right phrase to put into your manuscript.
I just discovered Dear Author yesterday, as I have a horrible flu and have been sick all weekend, and I was looking for reviews of good ebooks I could get to distract myself from my plague and pestilence. Anyway, I just learned of this whole situation, and I’d like to add my agreement to those who’ve said the issue of plagiarism needs to be discussed, publicly and openly, because it tends to get shoved under the rug. It shouldn’t be ignored, toned down or kept quiet, and it shouldn’t have to be let go. It SHOULD be discussed until people are way past sick of hearing about it. A big, fat, hairy deal should be made out of it. A civil and reasonable one, but still.
Here’s a sad little tale for all of you kids: I work in accounting now, but after college I managed a bookstore for three and a half years, from 2000 to 2004. On top of that, I am and always have been a voracious reader, and yet until today I had NO IDEA that Janet Dailey blatantly plagiarized a mind boggling amount of Nora Roberts’ works. Okay, so I was only 19 in 1997 and I didn’t read romance back then, but I wasn’t dead and I didn’t live in a cave. I watched the news, I read newspapers, and I was online. How could this story have been so downplayed that it could have escaped my notice?
Moreover, I MANAGED A BOOKSTORE FOR OVER THREE YEARS and I had never heard of this before. Why? Because it was never discussed or even mentioned in company communications, amongst store staff or other managers, or even at the annual company conventions. I did not work for some small, obscure company. I worked for Barnes & Noble. It was never so much as brought up in passing when Janet Dailey got that large contract (Kensington, was it?) round about 2001. Not a whisper, not a word. How WRONG is that?
After seeing mention of it in these comments, I did a bit of Googling, and my oh my what discoveries did I make. To Ms. Roberts, I would like to say how shocked I am, and also how terribly sorry that you not only had to endure such an ordeal, but that it could be quashed to the degree that one of the biggest book retailers in the world couldn’t be arsed to mention it once in a nearly four year period.
For anyone who writes, plagiarism is more than a crime. It’s a violation of something sacred to you, something you put a bit of your soul into. Beyond the personal level, plagiarism is an insult to artistry in all its forms. It’s lazy, unethical and unprofessional. Yet for all of that, I think the worst part is that it can happen and a perpetrator can emerge so unscathed as to sign a seven figure contract less than five years later, or someone can change a bit of measly punctuation in entire passages of poetry and fiction and try to paint it as “research,” then essentially cry racism and say they’re being harassed by fame whores when they’re called on it. That’s sickening, and it’s the kind of thing that can slowly undermine an entire industry, let alone a genre already too often susceptible to undeserved criticism. So discuss away, by all means. If people can still manage to stomach headlines about Britney Spears, they can certainly survive a healthy discussion of plagiarism, both what it is and how it affects people and business.
Wow, I think I’m more peeved about this than I realized. But seriously, just looking at those side-by-sides is about enough to make you queasy. And Longfellow? La Farge? I mean, honestly, the unmitigated gall. Research, indeed.
Well, as long as we tolerate the blaming of the victim and the demonizing of those who uncover the copying, the issue will remain taboo, IMO.
I just commented on someone else’s blog that I hadn’t commented on this whole thing before, because, well mostly I couldn’t think of anything that someone else hadn’t already said.
But now I HAVE to post. Must.
LONGFELLOW????
Hiawatha, no less?
LONGFELLOW??
Sweet Jesus, this is bizarre.
Longfellow? *sigh* Anybody find James Fenimore Cooper in there yet? (Different regions of the country aside, he loved him some in-depth description.)
All the comparisons at this point are allegations, as they have not been proven in a court of competent jurisdiction.
There is not court of competent jurisdiction for plagiarism, only copyright infringement and we can all determine for ourself whether what we read rises to the level of plagiarism under our own definitions. However, there should be one uniform definition for the genre that sets a floor above which individuals can build their own ethical standards.
Nor do I condone the behaviour of Sarah and Candy at “Smart Bitches” for rallying the audience into a frenzy by promoting public humiliation and shame through the contact of various sources including the media. That is malicious behaviour.
No, it’s not. Malice, under a legal standard which you refer to, is considered to be reckless disregard; something that shocks the conscience of the community. Reporting and even making a snide comment about Ms. Edwards’ writing is never going to be considered malice in a “court of competent jurisdiction.”
Further, the various sources the SBs contacted were publishers. The media came to them because of the magnitude of the situation.
I am skeptical of the Hiawatha. That’s just too blatant. Everyone knows those lines. I could see that being an homage or even the character’s POV. Of course, with the pattern we’ve seen I can see why plagiarism is assumed. But it seems to me that when lines are truly famous writers only use them as a nod toward the original, unless they’ve completely lost touch with reality.
I was wondering this myself. In my googling I found two lines describing a horse drawn carriage lifted from a 1986 biography of a quilter/folk artist to Passion’s Embrace. The only thing I can think of is that she wrote things down that struck her.
The padded black patent leather seats were as soft as air as the fancy
carriage rode like a breeze. Passion’s Embrace Page 162
The new Carry-all was a beauty. Its two padded black patent leather seats were as soft as air, and it’s long buggy box rode like a breeze above its elliptic springs.
No Time on My Hands - by Grace Snyder - 1986 Page 128
Janna, thank you. A whole bunch.
As for recognizing the lines from Haiwatha. I didn’t. I had to memorize the first verse (I think) in grade school, but I didn’t automatically recognize the lines lifted.
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Uh, no. When you use words written by a famous (or not so famous) author, you give credit to that author. Plagiarism is NOT the sincerest form of flattery!
You can write your book in a stylistic rip-off of Raymond Chandler, for instance…and you’ll probably just get laughed at as doing the poor man’s imiation of Raymond Chandler. But if you use Raymond Chandler’s words — for example, quoting a line from Chandler in dialogue from your hero — you’d better darn well have it right in there: “Jack said, doing a bad Raymond Chandler imitation.” Having the words come out of Jack’s mouth without crediting Chandler gives the impression that Jack (well, the guy writing the book about Jack…) is saying those words in exactly that way for the first time, ever.
See the difference?
Kasey Michaels
Courtney said,”But I’m back to one of my original questions from last week-what is the punishment now? Return of Edwards’ contract money and royalties? Pulling all books by her from shelves to eliminate the possibility of future sales? It seems very unclear to me what Penguin can and will do.”
None of us know what will occur next. But for many of us, the most important element in this is stopping others, be they newbie writers or veterans, from adopting such practices.
Deadlines can be hell, as can the driving desire to sell your first book. We don’t want that to translate into “steal from others as needed to meet those goals”. And those goals often equal; published, money, adoration, and fame. Yes, seeing your work published is a huge rush, but then comes even more work.
If we keep quiet on this issue, it will be swept under the rug. Heck, when I started writing I had NO clue JD stole from Nora. And yet she still has a writing career using her original name (okay, I don’t know if she went by JD at the time, but from others I’m extrapolating that that is the case.)
If that is the case, it’s rather disheartening. Other writers with more than one book pubbed have had to change their pen names when their last book didn’t sell well. Heck, they’ve even had to try new sub-genres. But, JD, keeps on going on going on. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Perhaps, if the community of writers had been able to spread their message that this sort of crud is unacceptable, others wouldn’t follow suit, or at least check themselves if they’d done it in the past and hadn’t been caught.
My two cents.
(And okay, for the first time I’m gonna glom on Nora. I’ve refrained for a year or more now since you first started popping up on the blogs. I thought that at those times I heartily agreed with you, someone would discount my words as being that of yet another rabid fan. Hence, they would disregard my other comments even if they were in contrast to your own. But now, I’m saying, Me Lubs Me Some Nora Books. LOL)
I’ve been reading along over at Teach Me Tonight and they’ve been talking about intertextuality within the plagiarism discussion. Things like pop culture references, things that we might reasonably expect our audience to recognize as a tip of the hat to something that we did not create.
For instance, if your character says, “That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” I don’t think most of us would consider that plagiarism because we have a reasonable expectation that a good part of our audience knows “The Princess Bride.” That’s intertextuality. It’s what makes fiction fun and interesting. Finding those crossroads in literature broadens our scope of understanding.
Therefore, in this sole instance (and I’ve been vehement in my stance that CE plagiarized repeatedly and without limit) I might put this one down to intertextuality.
However, given the pattern of plagiarism that we’ve seen, it certainly tosses another shovel of dirt on the grave of her career.
Blame the Plot Monkeys for me dropping in here on this subject. I have never really had time to check out DA or SB until this topic came up in today’s blog.
Like Jana, I work, and have worked for years for the competition- Border’s and Waldens. The romance section is my section of responsibility. Always has been. And in the years I only heard little bits and pieces of what JD did to La Nora. Not through the company either, but on the web. (Before I really started using it for more than sending emails, so I never really searced it out.) I don’t think I have read a JD novel in years, which may have been an unconscious decision on my part. (And is May here yet, I want book 2 of Blood Brothers, NOW!)
Simply pulling the books from the shelves however will not accomplish much. When we do pull MM, we have to strip cover them, return the cover for credit, throw the book out and if the inventory is set for a certain number of copies, the publisher or warehouse will just replenish our stock. The only thing it really does is contribute to the, hopefully, recycling pile. Also, as far as the bookstores are concerned, if someone is willing to buy it they will be happy to take their money. OJ’s book anyone?
As for not stopping the discussions- Civil Discourse has always been highly prized by this nation. Should we stop because someone feels like we are just talking it to death. The internet and the world have become the town crier’s new podium of choice. And in many ways, one that will help, ultimately, to bring problems to the forefront in a quicker (although that doesn’t always mean accurate) means. I, for one, would rather wade through other people’s meaningless comments then rely on one person telling me what is the truth.
As for the programs available, my daughter’s college has one that the students can run their papers through and it will highlight the passages that are suspect, or need to be reworded, and they can do that until the paper is “clean”. These run fairly fast and there is no reason why a publisher can’t do the same thing- not with every book as someone suggested- but with a random selction from every author maybe. This way if it does flag something, BEFORE it is published, they may be able to nip the problem in the bud, so to speak, and keep a watchful eye on future submissions.
Just MHO as an avid romance reader.
I don’t know if Nikki or Sarah Frantz are reading this thread, but Nikki provided text from a CE book that had copying affirmed by Google booksearch to Dr. Frantz. Dr. Frantz ran it through Turnitin, the software she uses to check her students papers against plagiarism and Turnitin turned up 0% plagiarism so I don’t know how effective it actually is.
“The behaviour shown by the commentary of people on Dear Author and Smart Bitches gives a very poor example to outsiders, more specifically, those who are not Americans and not living in the United States.”
Really? It never even crossed my mind that there were national boundaries where plagiarism allegations were concerned, or that there was anything specifically American in the response to the allegations of plagiarism.
Also, are you assuming that most/all of the people commenting here and at the Smart Bitches are American? Because I know for a fact that quite a few of us who have been commenting are not.
Barbara,
If Cassie Edwards were a Japanese author, published in Japan, and found out to be a plagiarist, she would’ve gone to the press, apologize and bow deeply to show her remorse. So I don’t see what the point of the particular argument you’ve made there. Do you think you speak for the rest of the world just because you aren’t American?
Sela, thanks for bringing that up. I’ve been wondering about how allusion and homage fit into the picture, and where the line is drawn between them and plagiarism. It’s still murky for me.
That’s what I thought. Talk about time-consuming.
No problem, Mora. Like I said, I’ve learned a lot at Teach Me Tonight and the P&P thread here.
I’m curious about something. Is continuing to look up “similiarities” between her books and other “sources” making fun, making light and mocking? Or is it being honest about the situation?
Just checking for future reference.
You see, here’s the thing. I intentionally came out of a self-imposed personal ban on getting involved in “controversial” discussions just for this issue. Why? Because for once, someone, actually several someones, has found hard evidence of something that I’m truly interested in. It’s not just their own personal opinions to argue about endlessly that finally slides into cyber shouting matches about hurting this or that individuals feelings. Been there, done that, don’t want to do it any more on any topic. Thank you very much.
But this is actually hard evidence and that’s another matter entirely. In a way I feel like I’ve been waiting more than ten years for this community to reach this point. Now before someone starts screaming that none of this is proof, that “proof” has to be proven in a court of law - get over yourself. Of course, legally any settlements against the individual have to be done that way. I know that. We all know that.
Thing is, I am not talking about the author. I am talking about the books. And with regards to the books, the evidence for me is right there in the comparison lists and references that I can actually look up if I wish too. I can see for myself whether they’re “accurate” or not. I can judge for myself just how bad this is.
We all can.
And quite frankly, I tend to think we’re all way past the point of being told by someone to behave and go to our rooms. I certainly wouldn’t want anyone getting the wrong impression of the genre that we’re all just a bunch of mindless children that have to be told what to do . . .
Like that’s going to fly at this point. ;p
I’ve never posted here, but have been following this discussion closely because I received this very same bulletin with the supposed Cassie Edwards message on myspace. The reason I’m posting now is because I just went onto my myspace page and ALL the bulletins have disappeared from my page. It says I have no bulletins. It looks like it’s been wiped out and started over from zip. I find that very strange. I’m wondering if everyone else’s bulletins are gone.
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Bev, this should probably also be directed at me since something I’d said was being referenced and I don’t want people thinking I’m telling them what to do. I never listen when people tell me what to do, so why should others listen to me?
However, there comes a point when things escalate so that little progress is made. As I’ve said before, I’m goal-oriented and if it doesn’t help me accomplish the goal, it’s not something I’m going to mess with. I didn’t say others should feel the same, but I wanted my feelings on it out there because if we keep focusing on this one issue, it’s going to make it harder to focus on what we can do as a community to keep it from happening again. Or at least work toward that goal.
Again, since i’m the one who put out the comments about making fun, making light, mocking… I’ll answer. In my original comment,