*sigh* I miss the old go back and edit feature.

As to the Ward/Feehan/Kenyon, eh, I’m not so sure I could call them UF, either. UF generally isn’t about romance. Now I love when somebody can blend them well, but it doesn’t happen that often.

Ward/Feehan/Kenyon all strike me as paranormal romance.

Feehan I would say is still paranormal romance but I think Ward and Kenyon are heading towards Urban Fantasy.

Talk about sarcastic, huh Sarah?

When LKH’s first books came out they were generally considered horror “lite” with all the references to dead bodies and necromancy. Dresden’s books fell rather easily into UF. Some of Gaiman’s work and Simon Green seems to have fallen across the horror/UF divide.

To me, in the end, the labels don’t really matter either. I enjoy both genres equally.

We could debate on the Patricia Briggs’ books, but again, the focus isn’t on the romance, I don’t believe. It’s not what drives the story. Maybe Jane will weigh in with her thoughts, but to me, that’s like saying Janet Evanovich’s Stephanie Plum series is romance, except Patricia Briggs doesn’t drag out her “which guy will Mercy choose” storyline (thank God). To further clarify my thoughts, other authors that come to mind for me are Kim Harrison and Keri Arthur. While all have elements of romance in their books, the romance isn’t the focus, nor are the stories driven by the romance.

I guess I’m not really sure how you can say that those authors I previously mentioned have a focus on romance in their stories or a HEA–and Ilona doesn’t have any romance at all which makes your statement that much more puzzling to me.

Mrs. Giggles said:

Labels, to me, are convenient but not really useful. Angela, I honestly don’t know what exactly is the actual definition of urban fantasy anymore because the term has been used so loosely, I only have an inkling that it is set in an urban setting.

But like I said, I’m cynical, probably too much so to imagine that it’s all about the story, heh.

I agree with you about the labels and the urban fantasy definition. It’s obvious from this discussion of just a few of us that it’s not easy to pin down. And, okay, we’ll just agree to agree that you’re cynical. I’m cool with that ;) I do think, though, that while there are plenty of books called urban fantasy that do fit your description, there are also plenty that don’t and it is a shame that it’s become targeted like that in not just your mind, but I’m sure others as well.

Jane said: Anything that seemlessly blends (or attempts to blend) an urban real world setting with mystical aspects seems to fall under UF for me…although I have always seen the focus of UF on the world building and the conflicts are driven largely by external forces rather than internal emotional ones.

Me too.

As an interesting aside, I learned this week that we can argue all we want about definitions, but it doesn’t really matter what we think is urban fantasy or not because, in the coding system for booksellers/bookstores, there’s no such genre. The coding is very limited and urban fantasy doesn’t exist, so it has to be called something else. So that’s why some get shelved in romance and some get shelved in fantasy. It depends on what the publisher codes it in as.

I think one of the seminal urban fantasy works is Emma Bull’s War for the Oaks.

You are so completely right. War for the Oaks is one of the best UF stories every written. Jane, have you read the Diana Tregarde books by Mercedes Lackey? That was another well done UF, IMO.

As to the Ward/Feehan/Kenyon, eh, I’m not so sure I could call them UF, either. UF generally isn’t about romance. Now I love when somebody can blend them well, but it doesn’t happen that often.

Ward/Feehan/Kenyon all strike me as paranormal romance.

If Samhain wants to publish some kind of urban fantasy that is closer to the likes of the authors you’ve mentioned, that’s really great. But I suspect that for most people out there, “urban fantasy” is synonymous with “sassy tough heroine + vampire/werewolf mysterious enemy-turned soulmate + (if vampire boyfriend) magical soulmate telepathic bond sex/(if werewolf) pheromone-driven sex working in sync with the phase of the moon + magic sex to elevate super powers + lots of angst on the boyfriend’s part”.

But like I said, I’m cynical, probably too much so to imagine that it’s all about the story, heh.

Anything that seemlessly blends (or attempts to blend) an urban real world setting with mystical aspects seems to fall under UF for me. To some extent, I suppose Mrs G is right is categorizing Feehan, Kenyon, Ward, et al under the UF umbrella although I have always seen the focus of UF on the world building and the conflicts are driven largely by external forces rather than internal emotional ones.

I think that those authors who write UF with romantic elements do a much better job of blending the elements than writers of romance with UF elements. Some of my favorite UF authors right now include Patricia Briggs and Ilona Andrews.

Or, if we want to be really cynical, “urban fantasy” is what you get when you base your style and storyline template after those of JR Ward, Christine Feehan, or Sherrilyn Kenyon. Don’t forget to draw out the series for as long as you can!

Oh, I wouldn’t agree with that at all. For one thing, I think LKH had one of the original urban fantasy series (though I would agree the series has been drawn out far too long at this point). But also, there have been some really talented urban fantasy authors like Patricia Briggs, Ilona Andrews and Lilith Saintcrow who I think can write circles around those authors (now I’m waiting for indignant fangirls of aforementioned authors to come and strike me down with lightning and caustic words), and whose style and storyline have nothing in common with theirs.

When I think urban fantasy, I most definitely don’t think Feehan, Kenyon and Ward. Do you really think of them as urban fantasy, Mrs. G?

Some books are straight Urban Fantasy, like Jim Butcher’s books.

Then there are books that are either Urban Fantasy with romantic elements or Paranormal Romance. The way I differentiate the two types is…if the focus in the novel is on other elements in the storyline more than the romance, then it’s UF. For instance, Patricia Briggs’ “Mercy” series is UF with romantic elements whereas Nalini Singh’s Psy/Changling series would be considered Paranormal Romance.

It sounds like what Samhain is looking for are both types of stories, but romance needs to be in there somewhere, even if it’s not the center focus of the book.