The part that you mistook was that is was NOT the heroine that was 16, the forced seduction was between two antagonists. (there were three in total) And it most definately WAS a historical.

LOL, Eva; In my slow-witted state, I saw that and thought that they were rivals, not antagonists in the sense of “those who create conflict for the protagonists.” Thanks for clearing that up. It reminds me a whole ‘nother issues about how “bad girls” are portrayed in Romance, though, especially in regard to sex and ambition. Can’t speak for the Holt book, but I do know that the villainnesses are often those who are willing to use sex more freely to get what they want.

In my experience, it was not shame that was the worst effect.
Nor was it fear or degradation.
It was the total, whole and complete subjugation of my being. (But perhaps I should qualify that by adding I was held against my will for a period of time.)
The worst of it to me was the abject control of my rights and wishes, the basic premise of freedom taken from me.

In my experience and others I have known shame was the hardest to deal with. I can see that from your point of view things would be different.

In terms of fictionalization, my post was about what it meant for the heroine to have the hero shoulder her shame. Fiction is not real life and I am willing to allow things to happen in a book I would never even consider likely in real life. It’s about what I choose to believe. Fiction is rife with motif, symbolism and allegory. Under the right circumstances I am willing to put up with rape or forced seduction in a romance novel. Maybe even understand and agree with why it was used. You may not consider any reason good enough and I don’t blame you. Where you draw the line in your reading is entirely up to you.

This is a great reminder — to me, anyway — about how much depends on a reader actually reading each book in question. Because this description absolutely horrified me(!), but I know that if I read the description of To Have and To Hold or CtC without reading the books, they probably would horrify me, as well. I assume that this Holt book is a historical Romance, especially given the age of the heroine? Because all I keep thinking about it how 16 year olds now don’t have the legal capacity to consent to a contract, let alone forced sex! Context is obviously crucial for these books.

Well I didn’t luurve the story, it was ok, and like I said, although I pretty much hate virgins-the one was at least amusing. I did love the hero, although he made a huge mistake, his motivations were great.

The part that you mistook was that is was NOT the heroine that was 16, the forced seduction was between two antagonists. (there were three in total) And it most definately WAS a historical.

One of the most crippling effects of rape is shame. It follows a rape victim for the rest of their lives and is IMO even worse than fear or degredation.

In my experience, it was not shame that was the worst effect.
Nor was it fear or degradation.
It was the total, whole and complete subjugation of my being. (But perhaps I should qualify that by adding I was held against my will for a period of time.)
The worst of it to me was the abject control of my rights and wishes, the basic premise of freedom taken from me.

On that basis, I surmise the hero who rapes can never redeem himself. Particularily if he has isolated, removed (from her comfortable surroundings) or kidnapped ther heroine.
He stole her right to choose, decide or love as a human being, as person. (Yes, I know women were not recognized as persons under the law until the last century.)
IMO, there is no chance for a woman to be truly herself with a man who has taken her sense of importance. And love him in spite of her feelings? Only if he has succeeded in making her a doormat.

I also just read Secret Fantasy by Cheryl Holt which also has a forced seduction between two antagonists. (the girl being 16 and the man being in his 40’s I think?-the hero’s father) She sets it up where the consent is given because she will do anything to be a Countess. So, even though she’s a virgin, 16, and thinks sex is gross he bullys her into being tied and then into having sex because of her desire for the title. (And I’ll have to say, I hate virgins, but there were two in this story and at least they were amusing.) And since Holt is a lawyer, I’m going to assume she knew the balance beam she was walking.

This is a great reminder — to me, anyway — about how much depends on a reader actually reading each book in question. Because this description absolutely horrified me(!), but I know that if I read the description of To Have and To Hold or CtC without reading the books, they probably would horrify me, as well. I assume that this Holt book is a historical Romance, especially given the age of the heroine? Because all I keep thinking about it how 16 year olds now don’t have the legal capacity to consent to a contract, let alone forced sex! Context is obviously crucial for these books.

My comment resembles Robin’s comment about how reforming a rapist may give the heroine power, taking her out of the role of victim. One of the most crippling effects of rape is shame. It follows a rape victim for the rest of their lives and is IMO even worse than fear or degredation. It’s been said what’s written in romance novels might not always be in direct correlation with real life and I agree. Very few rape victims could ever fall in love with a perpetrator. However, in a romace novel with a rape by the hero there is a lack of shame. Obviously the heroine feels shame, her reputation is ruined, she has only a monstrous act of violence to associate with sex. The hero (who hopefully she loved to some degree before the rape) is abject with grief and guilt and they come together in forgiveness and love and she marries him. That shame she would have had to carry especially if she were ever to marry elsewhere can now be transerred to him. It is his shame, because he is the one who commited the act. He knows she didn’t want it and he knows how it happened and would never think her dirty or promiscuous because he knows better. This dynamic would not likely occur in real life, in the context of fiction however, it is certainly viable. In my opinion atleast. In a way, the dynamic can be empowering, maybe even subversive. How likely is it for a perpetrator to take on the shame of a victim.

Also, I haven’t read the book in question and what I’ve stated here is not a reflection of its dynamics.

I have a forced seduction in a novella being published too, and this post made me think about the specific points I had to write so that the reader would know that the heroine did desire the hero in that scenario. Mostly the scene was about her inner turmoil.

Alot of interesing responses to consider.

I also just read Secret Fantasy by Cheryl Holt which also has a forced seduction between two antagonists. (the girl being 16 and the man being in his 40’s I think?-the hero’s father) She sets it up where the consent is given because she will do anything to be a Countess. So, even though she’s a virgin, 16, and thinks sex is gross he bullys her into being tied and then into having sex because of her desire for the title. (And I’ll have to say, I hate virgins, but there were two in this story and at least they were amusing.) And since Holt is a lawyer, I’m going to assume she knew the balance beam she was walking.

So after reading these posts, and then finishing that book I had a lot of food for thought. My personal conclusion came from the BDSM train of thought, that yes, those scenarios can be a part of a safe fantasy and that is what forced scenario authors are tapping into.

There are a lot of books on the market that hinge on the idea of a forced seduction. Rosemary Rogers was doing it decades ago. I think it’s “Wicked, Loving Lies” where the heroine starts off getting seduced against her will after she stowed away on the hero’s ship. She loves it. The entire book is one forced-seduction scene after another. She ends up happily married with the hero. Of course. I believe this premise was Rosemary’s stock and trade. “The Story of O” does it, a book that could easily be argued to be other than romance, but still. “A Journey around a Darker Sun,” does it, and it couldn’t be categorized as anything but romance.

I would argue that what makes these stories different than “redeemed-rape-in-romance” stories is her mind set. Not his mind set. Hers. In real life if a girl says no, he’d damned well better stop. But these stories are fantasies. He can read her mind. He knows. She might be saying no, but she means yes. She’s wet and ready. If he walked away like she was asking for (begging for), she would be disappointed in the book.

A fantasy like this has nothing in common with actual rape scenes as seen in books like “Into the Cut” and “She’s Come Undone.”

I am not advocating mind-reading men for real life. In real life, if the girl says no, no is meant. Otherwise it’s a recipe for date rape, and it doesn’t take an English major or a shrink or a victim to see that. I’m going to guess (and speak surely for myself) that date rape or any other kind of rape isn’t what romance authors are going for when we use forced seduction contructs.

It’s a fantasy. Anyone who’s been tied up by their SO and enjoyed it, knew they were safe, but maybe when they closed their eyes, they were pretending they weren’t. Maybe they were pretending they were the newest edition to the harem or the most sought after sex slave. It’s an edgy concept. It’s not a fantasy for everyone. But it is a common enough fantasy to have been working it’s way into true romances such as those by Rosemary Rogers. I can’t imagine how many handcuffs are sold in places like Good Vibrations and other adult stores, but it’s measurable, and I don’t think the majority or people who use them are hurting other people (or getting hurt).

I don’t know if forced seduction is what Campbell did, or was trying to do. I know it’s what I was trying to do in “My Captor” in my NIGHT SPELL anthology. (Jane called her review of that book a “Maybe Related Post,” which is why I bring this up.) In that novella, the heroine is tied up and seduced and spanked. She has no choice in the matter and she loves it. And while I can agree that this scenario isn’t to everyone’s taste (like Jane, my mother wonders what’s wrong with me!), three major publishing houses tried to buy that novella. Three. Some people enjoy that edge.

As I wrote that story, my heroine was wanting it and loving it. If she’d been repulsed by her captor, it would not have worked for me (nor for the three editors that tried to buy the book, I imagine). I’d go even farther. If my heroine hadn’t been turned on by her captor, he wouldn’t have had any fun either. He would have walked away.

And lest you all think all of my novels are this twisted, I can assure you they’re not! My novella “The Bet” in PURE SEX just won the Gayle Wilson Award for Excellence for published authors, and MOON SHADOW earned a 4-star review from RT, which would not be possible if the heroines were tied up against her will!

Happy reading,
Lucinda

I feel that artists (and I include romance authors in this category) need to be given the free reign to portray the fantasies or nightmares that call to their imaginations. The end results can then be judged by readers.

Artists, journalists, authors, reviewers and readers the world over are sure to agree. It is our right to express and explore, no matter the discomfort it might induce.