My main topic, however, and I’m sorry if this gets long, is re. the labeling issue, where I *don’t* really have an answer. As somebody said, you mustn’t create so many sub-genres the reading audience gets splintered, confused, and eventually lost, but I do like the idea of “ROMANTIC + primary-genre noun” rather than “genre adj. + ROMANCE” on the spine for non-HEA stories.

However, the default term “paranormal” to me suggests “unexplained phenomena”, a possible non-fiction subject. Surely books with (e.g.) immortal vampires and/or efficacious potions s/b called “fantastic”, or at least “supernatural” (although that can have a metaphysical connotation), and aren’t *alien* beings and worlds by definition science fiction? (I’ve become leery of any book termed “futuristic”, which seems all too often to be some romance writer’s poorly conceived attempt at expanding to an sf/f audience. — Fantasy fans, remember Margaret Ball’s satire of this in _Mathemagics_?!) And I won’t even get into the question of time-travel here!

One reader may call a given book “fantastic romance” (hmm, maybe part of the problem is that “fantastic” can sound like simply a rave review!) while another (esp. a guy) would call the same story at most “romantic fantasy”. I love LMcMB’s _Sharing Knife_ series, but I’ve been pleasantly *surprised* at how widely it’s been well-received. And are “urban fantasies” always contemporary? (I can’t think of an sf/f example offhand, but in mystery, Lindsey Davis’s Falco lives in an ancient Rome that’s as urban as NYC!)

Lines may be hard to draw between ESP/telekinesis (human psi potential?), vs. afterlife or wicca (religio-spiritual), vs. magic ([high] fantasy), vs. future-tech (speculation), and cryptozoology vs. werewolves (pure myth), but to me it’s about the level of suspension of disbelief required. Any of the above plot/setting elements can be combined with romantic themes. Brick-&-mortar stores have long had trouble knowing where to shelve cross-genre books such as romantic suspense (even with no para/f/sf), especially when a popular and prolific author has some titles that are more romance/sexual while others are more thriller/mystery, and not all are HEA. The only answer may be to create a
section for “cross-genre romantic authors” – What d’you think?

While some of these stories are excellent, none of them resembles what I’ve previously read as “paranormal romance”. Some are romantic; very few are paranormal. I’d call the collection a cross-section of supernatural and straight-up sci fi/fantasy, generally involving significant romantic relationships. I’ll review the stories first, then talk about the collection as a whole and Guran’s definition of paranormal romance…

Guran sets out to explore both the “happily ever after” variety of genre romance and a realm of romance that doesn’t guarantee the “HEA”. I applaud the idea, but the execution is lacking. In particular, while I’m not a staunch defender of the HEA, it can work beautifully when done well. Unfortunately, the stories with the strongest HEAs are the weakest in the volume, laden with old-school conventions from past generations of both sci-fi and romance. I have to wonder whether Guran is trying to show weaknesses in the “happily ever after” convention, or whether she’s not up to date on what is considered romance these days…

My feeling is that Guran has recycled a number of sci fi and fantasy ideas under a different name. As some of the DearAuthor commenters said, it could be a misguided grab to get the romance market reading sf/f. But my sense is more that Guran truly believes that this is a reasonable fit. I disagree.

Sarah, you’re absolutely right but I think we’ve already established that on the whole romance readers have no problem reading outside the genre. I seriously doubt that only holds true to online readers. So, if off-line romance readers browse other genres and hunt for “hidden treasures” just as much as we do then . . . ?

Conversely, I have a difficult time imagining that the very genres that orginally gave rise to the print fan magazines – namely science fiction and fantasy, not to mention mystery – don’t have some ways to share news and tidbits about hot, interesting books when they want and need to. The key is getting them interested and thinking the books are hot. I mean sure there is going to be the lone reader out there isolated from everyone but when you get right down to it what do readers do better than anything? They read. And when they need a reading fix, they will find a way to get it.

Don’t we? Ahem. ;p

When you get right down to it, what we really want as readers is a gigantic database that cross-references the books for us on the spot. I suppose that’s the Internet nowadays. ;p

Seems to me that I’m not hearing a lot of romance readers have problems finding non-romances with romances in them nowadays. At least online, romance readers are very vocal about telling each other about romantic finds outside the genre. It’s almost at the level of a mass treasure hunt.

These discussions have highlighted that readers outside of romance might need some help in the other direction, however. Either because they don’t want to search/touch romance shelves or because they have no idea what they’re looking for there in the first place. (Which could be the same problem worded differently, I guess.) Except that doesn’t quite ring true either. Not completely. I spent some time last week surfing several SF/F review sites and ran across many paranormal/futuristic/sf/f romance reviews on a couple of them. They were quite favorable to the romance aspect of the stories, too. So, I can’t help thinking somebody is crossing the divide. They’re finding the books. All on their own.

And several of these were male reviewers.

I tend to think that a book like TWW would have gotten serious word of mouth regardless of where it was shelved. Look at the Temeraire series. Everyone and their cousin was posting about it and Novik is clearly a fantasy author.

As for multiple shelvings – I don’t know that I like that idea. What type of labels would be put on there? I think that it goes beyond labeling to encompass marketing and packaging. I was in BN the other day and there were some James Patterson and some other male author in the romance section. It seemed weird to me so even if there is some multiple shelving going on, I don’t know how successful the sell would be unless the overall look and feel of the book catered to women.

I agree with CindyS – that when I see the word romance on the spine and the book looks like a romance, then I am expecting a romance with a central love story and an HEA.

… god knows what Cyclops and Jean Grey will be doing in a decade – Meljean Brook

They’ll be fighting over Logan, of course ;-) . (Loving Whedon/Cassaday’s Astonishing X-Men. Highly recommend, even if, like me, one doesn’t know very much about that universe or read comics on a regular basis.)

I think Dr. Frantz’s defintions of paranormal and fantasy/SF make the most sense to me – I’m not very good with genre distinctions anyway; I want to lump all of them under fantasy and be done with it. Unless the book feels more like a romance to me – such as Shana Abe’s The Smoke Thief – then I consider those romances, but I don’t really have a clear definition for it, other than some books, to me, seem to follow the romance “formula” more closely than others (not that Abe’s book is formulaic, but it reads more like a romance than, say, Bujold’s Cordelia’s Honor or Sharon Shinn’s Archangel (I loved all three books, btw) … though I haven’t thought it out or figured out why yet). In any case, I don’t let genre get in the way of a good book, and I’ll read pretty much anything – except, I thought, horror, but then it turns out that Kim Harrison, Robin McKinley and once in a while Kelley Armstrong are shelved in that section.

I like how Ms. Bujold put it: “I find genre labels helpful when they guide readers to books, hurtful when they push them away.” It’s pretty much been my experience when recommending books. I wonder if creating more (sub?)genres will make it easier or more difficult for people who wouldn’t usually try other books to pick up a book outside their genre(s).

Still don’t know what women’s fiction is, or how it’s different from romance or chicklit. I don’t think I’ve seen a section for it in the bookstore, but maybe I’m not paying enough attention to the way the books are shelved. Perhaps they should be shelved like Robin McKinley’s books are – some in children’s, some in YA, a few in SF/F and one in horror (Sunshine). I wonder if it hurts or helps her sales that she’s in so many different areas of the bookstore, at least the ones I’ve been to.

My TBR invariably grows by leaps and bounds. The trauma of it all.

Heh. Same here.

Instead of putting paranormal romance on the spine whynot put romantic paranormal – I think this puts the emphasis on the strong part of the book. If your story is not going to end HEA then there are those who would argue it’s romantic (not me!) Therefore romantic paranormal to me means that there are elements of romance in a paranormal book.

I see paranormal romance and I think that the paranormal is just a ‘part’ of the romance and thus a HEA is something I as a reader expect.

Just saying

CindyS

I’m not a genre reader – I’ll read almost anything that comes my way that looks interesting but I read a tremendous number of Regency romances(I don’t read what I think of as modern romance), “paranormalâ€Â?/urban romances, all kinds of science fiction and fantasy, and mysteries. But I must admit that I have been on a primarily science fiction/fantasy/fantasy & SF romance kick for the last 6 months or so.

Being retired voracious just begins to describe my reading habits. But I’d been running out of reading material. A few months ago it seemed that I had caught up to most (if not all) of my old favorites and was wondering where I should go for new books. Then a friend of mine turned me on to some authors I’d never heard of – beginning with Steve Miller & Sharon Lee, Linnea Sinclair and Robin Owens. That started me looking! I scanned the shelves at the local Borders, started actively following the links and listmania suggestions on Amazon, and surfing through web sites (like this one) for authors that others were suggesting.

It’s been wonderful! I’ve met so many new authors! And followed trails I never even knew were open. It never even occurred to me to look in the romance section for fantasy or SF based romance! And it’s truly amazing the number of SF/F authors I’ve never looked at before. I’ve been stuck in a rut which I’m breaking out of. For example, J.D. Robb’s In Death series came to my attention a few weeks ago and I love them!

Readers shouldn’t be restricted by the genera assigned to a book. I’ve been searching the romance and mystery sections for SF/F romance/mysteries and finding them. I’ve also found romance and mysteries in the SF/F section. So I’ve taken to perusing the general fiction, mystery, romance AND SF/F sections! And finding treasures in all of them.

It’s not really important which genera the book ends up in if it has the right kind of word of mouth push. I belong to a large Yahoo group that discovered Naomi Novik’s Temeraire series and the entire group ran through the three books with glee.

Readers need to search and be open to searching in slightly unexpected places! Like this web site…

Kathleen

I think you’ve presented a fairly comprehensive overview of the problem. Whether or not shoving “love stories” with unhappy endings into the romance shelves will make or break the genre remains to be seen. Maybe it will break the shelving system instead.

The only other semi-reliable method of determining if you’re buying what you want to read is to know the author or read the reviews. Which pretty much leaves out the impulse buyer who has supported the industry lo these many years.

Also have you read Shana Abe’s The Smoke Thief? Both hero and heroine have paranormal abilities in that one, so I would be interested in your thoughts on it as well.

Yes, Payne’s book should be fascinating, especially given the rather conservative gender politics of Ward’s books.

You’re absolutely right, of course. BELLA *is* vampire, but her discovery of the “hidden” world of the BDB is where the tension of the book is located. She’s still more normal than Z. I guess I’d say that Lover Awakened is the least paranormal of Ward’s books, if we go with my definition, because most of Z’s issues are almost purely human, although stretched out over centuries, rather than decades.

I’m waiting with fascinated anticipation Payne’s book. No indication yet when it’ll be published or even what order it will be in the books, but she’s a female Warrior. Can’t wait to see if she’ll have a warrior mate or a human mate or a “normal” vampire mate.

Bella in Dark Lover is indeed a vampire, but she didn’t know it until she met Wrath and then went through her transition. So while she is technically paranormal, her outlook is mundane and it is actually through her that we as readers learn about the BDB and about vampires. So we experience her struggle to accept not only a man in her life, but a completely new life as a vampire.[/quote]

SPOILERS for J.R. Ward’s books below:

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I think you are referring to Beth in Dark Lover (Wrath and Beth’s book, book #1), Sarah. I am referring to Bella in Lover Awakened (Zsadist’s and Bella’s book, book #3). Bella isn’t in Dark Lover at all. She first appears in Lover Eternal (Rhage and Mary’s book, book #2). She is a friend of Mary’s who happens to be a vampire (but Mary doesn’t know it). Bella figures out that John Matthew is a pre-transition vampire who has the Brotherhood’s markings and she takes him to see the Brotherhood. There she meets Zsadist and is attracted to him. Later she is kidnapped by the lessers and in Lover Awakened (book #3) Zsadist rescues her and falls in love with her (his brother Phury does too, but that’s a subplot). Bella is the heroine of Lover Awakened and she is a vampire from her first apperance in Lover Eternal.

Sorry to rehash all this! There are a lot of plots and subplots in Ward’s books so it’s easy to get confused, so I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t confusing anyone further.

Fiesty asked me the other day what I would shelve The Bronze Horseman under. (I mistakenly said romance) If I’d read it when it came out I’d say -thanks to Ms. Nora- a love story. But now, having flipped to the back of Tatiana and Alexander, I’d say a romance. One long assed, tear inducing romance. Of which if I had the emotional fortitude, I’d read again, right now.

I would call TTW a paranormal love story. He had the problem as a medical condition and there is no HEA although it is wrenchingly romantic.

Bella in Dark Lover is indeed a vampire, but she didn’t know it until she met Wrath and then went through her transition. So while she is technically paranormal, her outlook is mundane and it is actually through her that we as readers learn about the BDB and about vampires. So we experience her struggle to accept not only a man in her life, but a completely new life as a vampire.

What label would you put on the spine? I ask because a lot of readers found the book including many who usually don’t read paranormal fiction. It was marketed very well as literary or mainstream fiction and it ended up on the bestseller lists. Which goes to show that sometimes genre labels can help readers find books, but sometimes they can hinder them.

So maybe the romantic relationship has to have an HEA, but any subplots do not.[/quote]

I agree, Carrie. I also don’t require marriage and children at the end of a book, just an emotional commitment.

What I would love to see, if s/f/f/ is indeed more than just a trend, is a new section entitled Romantic Paranormal Fantasy with the labels on the spines in that section having labels saying paranormal fiction, fantasy fiction, paranormal romance, fantasy romance.

I imagine this would keep readers of romance and sf/f quite happy.

Which is probably why some time-travel romances don’t do it for me. Falling in love with the descendant of the man who has been the hero for most of the story doesn’t work for me.

I can only think of one book that had this type of ending Jude Deveraux’s A Knight In Shining Armor, it started the time-travel craze, but I don’t think I’ve ever read a romance that had this same ending. Are there others out there?