Apr 13 2009
Amazon Buying Habits
Loading ...In light of Amazon’s recent deranking of categories of books effectively removing those books from search engines, bestseller lists, and recommended lists, I wondered how difficult it would be for people to move to a new vendor like Powells.com. For a while, I used to include a Powells buy link. I think I had used it for two or three months in conjunction with an Amazon buy link. Not once did DA earn a referral fee from Powells indicating that no one was using the buy link. During the same period, DA earned referral fees from Amazon.
I buy from Amazon, in part because of habit, but mostly because Amazon makes it so darn easy. Of course, it’s a little harder now to find the books I’m interested in buying because some books have been removed from the search engine, but overall, the one click buy, the no cost shipping, and the extensive database of books, makes shopping at Amazon a pleasure. What motivates you to buy from Amazon? And conversely, what would it take to move you away from shopping at Amazon?
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Apr 13, 2009 @ 05:52:07
I mostly stopped buying from Amazon when they started delaying their shipping and went with Bamm.com instead (they used to have a 10% off paperbacks but alas that’s gone now; they still have a program where military personnel can get the club membership 10% off without having to pay for the membership – only online).
I completely stopped buying books from Amazon when the review and ranking manipulation/reader harassment/POD monopoly scandal happened and haven’t missed them at all.
Bamm.com offers free shipping for orders over $25 and they’ve been much prompter in delivering the books to me. B&N charges more and I hate their stores (every single one I’ve been in lately had a crappy romance section, or a crappy selection overall, with rude staff who clearly wanted to be anywhere but in a bookstore; hell will freeze over before I give them any business).
I still use Amazon in conjunction with my Readerware database, but I wonder how much negative impact there will be, now that so many of the books that I buy are ‘hidden’. I’ve also used Amazon for research and then bought the books at Bamm.com.
It’s really depressing to see how a company that was innovative and the underdog has turned into this monopolistic and monolithic entity.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 06:08:45
I put other, because only part of “It’s easy to find everything. I almost use it as a database of all books in print” applies to how I use it. I don’t use it as a database but I do tend to be able to find OOP books there more cheaply than on Abe Books (which is now owned by Amazon anyway) and more reliably than on eBay.
I did switch a while ago to using the Book Depository some of the time, when earlier concerns about Amazon being a monopoly and putting pressure on publishers were raised. Before that, I’d used Amazon almost exclusively for new books. Now I’ll try even harder to find alternatives to Amazon. It’s very worrying to think that this so-called “glitch” had gone unnoticed until recently, even though it now turns out to have started affecting searches some considerable time earlier. How can I be sure the next time I search for something at Amazon that another “glitch” isn’t affecting which books come up in the searches?
In the UK Amazon does charge for postage, but I think it’s only for purchases under £5 and for the second-hand books. The Book Depository doesn’t charge for postage. I don’t notice any difference in how many clicks I have to make before I can buy something.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 06:13:34
I voted ‘other’ because there was no ‘All of the Above.’ Amazon.com makes it easy. It caters to the reader. There’s a lesson for the industry there.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 06:23:35
I chose “Other” too. I don’t use the 1-Click thing, but everything else, yes.
Or I used to. :P We’ll see how it goes.
Angie
Apr 13, 2009 @ 06:40:27
I actually do almost always pay shipping when I buy from Amazon because I don’t have Amazon Prime and I rarely buy enough or buy items that qualify for free shipping. Which is why I actually rarely purchase from Amazon. What I do use Amazon for is the wishlist and the recommendations.
Then I’ll take what’s there and either purchase the books new from a brick & mortar bookstore or used from half.com because their used and shipping prices almost always beat Amazon’s.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 06:55:55
Personally, I do not find it difficult or convenient in the slightest to shop at other stores. I haven’t bought anything from Amazon or any other chain bookstore in years, and I feel I’ve gotten better deals this way. I get all my books from local independent and used stores, or from the public library. Indiebound and Alibris are good places to find independent stores; AddAll searches hundreds of online catalogs to find the best price, which I’ve found is often AbeBooks or Alibris rather than Amazon.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 07:09:51
I find their prices to be cheaper than most places.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 07:26:27
It’s hard to pick a single reason, because they all apply to me. I have Prime, so I don’t have to pay shipping per item. I love the variety they offer in not only books but other items as well. They also offer the best prices in most cases.
I have the Kindle, so I purchase my ebooks there. I also have the Sony Reader, but I prefer the Kindle.
I buy print books one at a time when I can’t find the ebook rather than in bulk, so I can’t see myself switching if I have to pay shipping per item. I stopped going to local bookstores, because I usually go to buy a specific book, and they never seem to have it in stock. I would understand if these are old books, but I’m talking about fairly new releases. I rarely have that issue with Amazon.
I can see myself stop buying books from Amazon if all books are available in Adobe epub format on the release day. Then, I can buy the books for my Sony reader.
Or another online bookstore offers a shipping deal like Prime, but I wouldn’t want to pay as much as I do at Amazon just for print books. I’ve purchased heavy or large products where the saved shipping cost justified the cost of the membership.
So, I would more than likely still use Amazon for other products.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 07:35:45
I could have answered “all of the above”. One feature I use a lot at Amazon is their wish list. I use it for books that I intend to buy at Amazon, but also for items that I will never buy – for example, covers for the cover contest, or books that I intend to buy used. I appreciate that Amazon makes their wish list so easy to use, and doesn’t get bent out of shape if I use it for other purposes.
However, if Amazon doesn’t change their current policy, I will seriously consider buying elsewhere. I’ve bought from B&N in the past, but I didn’t want to subsidize a company that treats romance readers so dismissively in their regular stores. My local independent bookstore openly calls romance readers “stupid”. I always thought Amazon, at least, had some respect for romance readers. That’s what I pointed out in my email to Amazon – do they want to lose the business of one of their most loyal customer groups? Although I’m disappointed that they tried this at all, I’m hoping they will see the light and reverse their decision.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 07:45:27
I stopped buying books from them well over a year ago. I have used their independent sellers for a couple of things over the past year (discontinued items that I couldn’t find anywhere). I voted Other for that reason.
I started disliking Amazon a LONG time ago… now, with this blatant discriminatory practice, I am not even going to bother with their independent sellers.
It makes me wonder who the hell are they hiring as management.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 07:45:55
I picked other because at this point I won’t ever be able to stop using Amazon, due to my Kindle. As much as I’m deeply disapointed in Amazon, and hope they fix this huge screw up, I can’t stop buying my ebooks there unless someone wants to give me a Sony eReader. ;)
I actually buy more non-book things from Amazon than actual printed books. I that you can get just about anything, not just books, from them, and still get a lot of them with free shipping.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 07:55:51
I pay for Amazon Prime so I like the shipping. However, I don’t buy all that many books from Amazon, I buy groceries. I don’t like to browse books on Amazon. If I know the author I’ll pick something up. I don’t pre-order anymore because my local B&N is getting the book early, in some cases a week before the official release date. Books used to be cheaper on Amazon but I noticed with my B&N membership, the prices aren’t that much different.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:04:51
I’m a shopper.
I am author and genre loyal but I’m not supplier loyal.
I go where the price is best and the shipping cost is the lowest I can get. Sometimes it’s Amazon. Sometimes it’s Barnes & Noble. Sometimes it’s ebay. Sometimes it’s the coupon that comes in my email from Borders. Sometimes it’s the local bookstores. Sometimes it’s a UBS.
For my ebooks I can only say I’m incredibly glad I didn’t give in to my own wants and greed and buy a Kindle.
Amazon is not the altar where I worship and with this latest censorship disgrace they aren’t even on my ‘browse’ list now.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:05:23
Almost all my book buying, and quite a bit of other buying, is from Amazon. It’s easy, they have what I want, and shipping is free.
What they do about deranking, search lists, etc. is a matter of indifference to me, I’m afraid, since I never use these features. I have my list of books, or at least authors, before I go shopping.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:13:34
I voted other as well. I bought one of their Prime memberships almost two years ago now. I’ve bought single books with no shipping and almost anything qualifies for the Prime membership/no shipping charges.
I’m wondering why more people don’t mention bn.com for the free shipping since they too have the $25 policy. Seriously, I’m curious, not…criticizing. I haven’t had any problems with bn.com, I’ve only ordered from Powells.com a couple times but haven’t had problems there either.
I do have better luck finding OOP that are used, for research, etc., but I do pay shipping on those. They don’t qualify.
I’m thinking when my Prime membership is over, I won’t be buying from Amazon anymore. They’ve just gotten out of control. Kind of like Ma Bell was (I *think* that was the first major antitrust legislation, but I could be wrong. I was young when that happened).
Frankly, if I had an Indie nearby, they’d be the one getting my business, but I have none anymore. My fav went out of business several years ago and there aren’t any more close by.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:14:54
I picked “It’s easy to find everything” because I do use it as a database. But usually, I use their info. (including the reviews sometimes) and then go buy at half.com, an independent bookstore from http://used.addall.com/ , or powells.com). Or even my local library. I’d just rather give Powell’s my business if the prices are close to the same, and they have great deals on autographed copies, etc., and are just as convenient.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:17:42
I use them as a database of books. I’ve not purchased a book from them since they started screwing with their reviewers. I buy online from Powell’s, B&N, Books a Million, and from independents.
(I did however buy a rice cooker from them since they were the only ones selling it in the US. What’s a girl to do?)
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:27:49
It’s been my go-to for a while now, anytime I want to find a title, see a cover, find out when something is coming out, etc. However, if they don’t resolve their “glitch” in a way that satisfies me, I won’t hesitate to switch. There are a lot more options for online book purchasing than there used to be.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:28:50
I don’t use one-click, but all the others apply. Amazon has the Newman’s Own Organic dog food that seems to be the only thing my ancient dog can digest far cheaper than anyone else (you just can’t find it in big cans around me at all, so I would have to have it shipped from somewhere), so we do Prime Shipping every year because of that. Then they lure me in…I go on there to order some dog food and end up buying books as well.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:30:28
Can’t vote ’cause my answer has to be ‘all of the above’ and also because they are, more often than not, the cheapest around (in Canada, we’re stuck with only Chapters/Indigo and Amazon if we want to pay in Canadian dollars (considering the actual exchange rate….). I wish I had more choice, but so far these two are the only places where I can buy books with my own currency. *sighs* And they’re so damn convenient.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:43:23
I don’t have any local book store (B&N over 30miles away) that is reliable for new releases. I went in last week for 5 new (released in last 3 weeks) books and my local store had none of those.
I have grown to LOVE amazon here’s why-
1. I buy from Target (love that 25% discount!) but they only get a very small # of books I want. No reliable local book store, and the one in town that I do have access to is full price always.
2. I live on my rec. page – every time one of my authors I buy often comes out with a new book BAM! There it is for me to know about months in advance. I rate every book I read with them (on my ‘you own’ page) and that helps them suggest books too. I’ve found more awesomeness that way than any other single source.
3. Price. I buy a lot of 4 for 3 and the trade paperback with discounts helps too.
4. free ship. I usually get my stuff within 5 days- so I have no beef with waiting a bit.
5. They save my info, make it all so damn easy.
All that said, if they don’t fix this “glitch” I’m going to have to re-think all of this and seek a new source. Some books I was considering have disappeared, and this whole thing reeks.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:48:34
I never bothered joining Prime because I always buy books in quantity, so I qualify for free shipping at any of the places that offer it above certain spending levels. (I’m lucky to keep my book spending under $100 per shopping trip.)
The main attraction for me with Amazon was the incredible ease in browsing. Best seller lists, “if you like ___ then ____” recommendations, and the “x% of customers also bought ___” features have helped me find lots of new authors over the years.
De-ranking books not only hurts the company I work for and all its authors, but it removes some of the main advantages in shopping at Amazon.
I hope someone at Borders is paying attention to all this. They’re so romance-friendly, and I just love their b&m stores. Staff is friendly and helpful, etc. etc. If they create a killer online store, they win.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 08:52:26
For me, it’s convenience and habit. I live in a rural area, with a half-hour drive to any sort of bookstore, and even then they focus so much on the ready-made “bestseller” books, I can’t find much I want. Yes, they’ll order for me, but Amazon and their competitors will ship to my house.
I use the wish list funtion a lot, as a reminder of things I want to get, yet might not be out yet. I usually wait until I have enough to get free shipping.
I’ve seen some mention BAMM.com as an option. They have a brick and mortar store in my area, staffed by some of the most incompetant people I’ve ever seen. If I ask to see if a book is in stock and shelved somewhere where I’m not expecting it, they act as if I’m an idiot for not just buying the stuff on their pretty display and instead expecting them to *gasp* do some work. That makes me shy away from supporting them online.
I have used DeepDiscount.com in the past. They don’t have as wide a selection as Amazon, though I think they’re improving. Shipping is generally free, with no minimum order.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 09:34:18
The irony in all of this, for me anyway, is that Amazon was my go-to retailer for my erotica and erotic romance needs. Even after erotic romance took off (and lines like Avon Red and Berkley Heat were launched), I still bought roughly 95% of my erotica and erotic romance titles through Amazon. Mostly because the books were in stock, readily available, I could get free shipping, and most importantly, some a-hole didn’t read the book in the store on their lunch break and bend the spine all to crap.
Call me wacky, but when I’m buying a new book….I expect it too look like it’s new.
Now I’m having trouble finding everything from Avon Red to Black Lace titles on Amazon and that pissed me right off.
I’m lucky to have some well-stocked Borders in my area. If I stumble across a title they don’t have in stock? I’ll probably either ask them to order it, or maybe just take myself over to Borders.com
Apr 13, 2009 @ 09:54:23
I switched away from Amazon during the POD thing. I missed the 4 for the price of three, but I order from B&N which not only gives free shipping over $25, but their shipping is really fast! I’ve gotten orders in 2 & 3 days! With amazon, it was often like 7-10. Also, for my blog, the images from B&N work better. Oh, also, if you have a Discover Card and use it on B&N, you get like 10% cash back.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 10:16:47
That poll really should have a multiple choice answer. It’s all of the above for me.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 10:45:55
The free shipping gets me there. Plus I can browse similar books. The one-click makes it easy. (I should’ve put “other” but chose the free shipping–I am one of those people who did the Prime thing and have already more than paid for that membership in savings, and I still have 9 months to go on my “year” membership.)
I would happily buy from someone else if they offered the same ease-of-use.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 10:51:35
Free shipping; Ease of finding OOP books. Wishlists; All of it.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:10:03
I use Amazon as a check of books in print and availability for my job (I’m a public reference librarian). I hardly ever buy books from them. I prefer to shop at my local bookstore if at all possible. Also since I’m a public reference librarian, my job is based on local tax dollars and I try to buy where tax dollars will go to my local government.
#amazonfail timeline of wtf « Birdbrain(ed) Book Blog
Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:16:32
[...] @ 11:15am: DearAuthor has put a poll up regarding your Amazon buying habits. Jane also wonders how hard it would be for people to switch to something other than Amazon, like [...]
Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:20:12
she reads,
It’s my understanding that #2 on your list, all those nifty “if you like x, then let us show you y,” is one of the major things affected by the de-ranking. It takes all of those de-ranked books out of contention for recommendation.
Which means you’re not getting a true reporting of, “people who shop like you also like …” instead you’re getting, “we’ll show you our approved choices among people who shop like you.” And that’s a big damn difference.
Please, someone, correct me if I’m wrong.
Also, Wendy, I have been appreciating the irony too. The Internet was built on porn. It IS The House That Porn Built. Without adult titles and erotica, I’m betting that Amazon would have grown a lot more slowly (not saying it wouldn’t have become what it is today, just that it would have taken longer to get there). What kind of maroon looks at their business model and says, you know, we should really yank our foundation out from under us. That’d be best.
The mind boggles.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:20:49
unfortunately I am a kindle user… so if it isn’t on there.. then I just am not going to buy it :(
I am disappointed in Amazon’s recent ‘glitch’ but it isn’t enough for me to give up my Kindle and super fast one click ereader stuff :(
Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:24:05
I voted other because its a combination of the above choices for me. For one thing its easier to tell people ‘look for my amazon wishlist’ when they wanted to get me things or to just tell them to give me an amazon gift certificate if they were stumped. With the 4 for 3 deal, bargain book selection, reduced prices on hardcovers and free shipping…well ::shrug:: its so much easier to shop with them.
I tried Powell’s a couple of times, but honestly they don’t carry a lot of stuff I want to pick up. I don’t know if their manga/manwha/manhua selection has changed, but it wasn’t as extensive as Amazon and a lot of smaller press publishers didn’t contract with them. And honestly Amazon Prime, when I could afford it, was such a godsend…
Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:32:31
I voted other because it’s a combination of easy to find everything, no shipping costs (though I am not a prime member, I use their “no shipping on orders over $25″ a lot), and software features like wishlists. Plus no tax.
And if you can’t find what you want through actual Amazon, there’s all those Amazon stores to buy items used. Yes, you pay for shipping then, but you often find such great deals that the s&h charge pays for itself.
I do have to say though that I don’t often buy that many books via Amazon. Most of my book buying is done in person at Borders, Target, & Wal-Mart or on-line at eHarlequin.com.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:42:43
Meant to also say that I do buy a lot of out-of-print books from the Amazon sellers because there isn’t a good used book store near me and it’s fast and convenient.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:48:39
I find it odd there’s no “it’s cheaper” button. That’s certainly why I’ve shopped there.
I’m a Powell’s affiliate and I actually get some money via it. Probably not as much as I would through Amazon but I just can’t bear to work with them.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 12:50:01
Voted “other” — All of the above reasons, including the “One Click” use… I received a Kindle for Xmas (very happy with it BTW), plus I have Prime shipping… this just sucks for me. I can’t deal with any attempt at censorship, so I’m afraid I won’t be able to put this “glitch’ aside. Unless it’s completely reversed, and possibly even if it isn’t, I’ll have to look for other alternatives.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 13:28:49
I voted other, because I only buy from Amazon when I have 4 paperbacks that qulify for the 4 for 3 deal and are over $25.00, so I get the free shipping. Other than that, nada.
I buy a lot of books and most of them are purchased from Books-A-Million. The fee for the annual membership is well worth it to me because of the volume I purchase. It gives me an additional 10% off their already low prices. They also have a lot of coupons worth $5 & $10. Over all, Bamm is good value if you buy a lot and I do.
Over the years, Amazon has consistantly left a bad taste in my mouth because of their various policies. The latest de-ranking issue is just another reason to steer clear of them.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 13:44:08
I chose “other” since my main reason is habit.
I’m an overseas buyer (New Zealand) and originally Amazon was a great place to get books not sold here at still affordable prices. As the overseas shipping went up, it became less so, but still okay. The price reductions helped cover the shipping costs.
Now, with all this going on, I’ve just made my first order from Book Depository. The cover price was a little higher, but not as much as the shipping from Amazon, so we’ll see how that works out.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 14:22:04
I voted Other, because for me, it’s price. I live in Portland, so Powell’s is a local trip for me, and if I want something they have, I just drive over and get it. But 9 times out of 10, Amazon will have the same book for less.
After all this, though, the few cents I save at Amazon seem a lot less important than the hopefully better integrity Powell’s offers.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 14:40:57
I don’t shop at Amazon or Barnes and Noble- i shop at my small independant book store who will order in almost anything I want- since the store might be 10′ x 15′ no section is very well stocked, but they are the ones who support the school booster clubs and are active in the local chamber of commerce. The only other place I regularly purchase books is Wal-Mart.
Such are the choices of living in a small town.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 17:13:28
I don’t shop at Amazon. I never have. When I finally heard about Amazon several years ago, I took a look at the website and said no way (I still say no way). I can’t stand the user interface/look of the website. It seems messy and unorganized and I just can’t seem to bring myself to use it. And, since I was already a B&N member, and have never had a problem with their stores or website, I saw no reason to switch to a difference book store.
So, since your poll didn’t have an, “I don’t shop at Amazon” option, I didn’t vote. :)
Apr 13, 2009 @ 18:30:21
I chose “other” because I’m all about the wish list. I use it to keep track of every book in which I’m interested. Discounts, free shipping, selection (yeah, well) and no sales tax are other reasons. Book Depository has become my new best friend, however, and I’ll happily check out bamm.com.
I’ve purchased from Powell’s, usually for OOP titles, and can’t really think of why I don’t go there more.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 18:51:49
I voted Other because I also live in NZ, and Amazon back in the beginning were one of the few internet bookstores that ship outside of the US.
I also buy from them because they are secure, make it easy via the shopping cart and order tracking. I like the wishlist facility, it makes it easy to peruse the New Releases and tag the ones I might be interested in.
I buy most of my books here in NZ, I tend to use Amazon for Hardbacks and other big expensive books that are ridiculously priced here. And I have to save up for a big order because the shipping is really expensive (learnt that the hard way with the marketplace – they charge you $12.50 per seller no matter how many and how many books)
I have looked at other options and with the exchange rate will look more seriously.
Apr 13, 2009 @ 23:18:56
I use the wish list feature a lot, to keep up with gift ideas for my adult children and a few distant friends and relatives. I also use the various suggestion and comparison features — yes, the ones affected by this latest mess! Sometimes I use Amazon’s features to research something and then go buy it elsewhere.
New releases I can often get locally, usually Borders. But I’m always discovering older books, especially romances, because I didn’t read much romance between college and my mid-40s. I have a lot of catching up to do, but where possible, I like to get the book new and contribute to the author’s income. Especially authors who aren’t prolific best sellers (no offence, Nora!). Amazon has a lot of those books, and their database makes it easy to find what they have.
I also belong to a couple of incentive programs that have Amazon gift cards as rewards options. I have earned a lot of my reading material that way in the past couple of years.
I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart, due to my distaste for certain practices there, and I’m starting to think that Amazon will end up on that list as well. That means it is time for me to check out the other options.
In answer to your question, Jane, what it would take is relative ease of use, free shipping if I order $25 or more, a stock of books from authors’ backlists, and some integrity. Am I asking too much?
Apr 14, 2009 @ 01:05:10
I’ll be interested in seeing if their sales are really affected by this. On the one hand, bookish people were heavily invested in this story. On the other hand, a lot of those people already patronize their local indie whenever possible.
I mean after all, we know that lots of the clothes we buy, for example, are manufactured in sweat shops and poor working conditions, and yet still we buy. It seems to always come down the almighty dollar.
Apr 14, 2009 @ 04:52:15
I buy from Amazon because it has the most reasonable international shipping rate out of all the big online bookstores.
Apr 14, 2009 @ 15:36:47
I answered “other†because, really, I shop Amazon for a host of reasons:
Convenience + no sales tax + no shipping + better selection than brick and mortar + discounts = Amazon being the “go to†place (note, most of my fiction comes in eform from Fictionwise at this point; Amazon is just for stuff I want in print).
Apr 15, 2009 @ 09:15:24
I haven’t shopped at Amazon in years.
Apr 15, 2009 @ 10:32:56
I voted other, but it’s really “all of the above.” I also have a Kindle and an Amazon Visa (yes, I’ve drunk very deeply of the Kool-aid). I’m certainly less than happy about this de-ranking issue (especially because I buy a fair amount of gay or erotic romance via Amazon), but I’m still contemplating what to do about my e-book purchases in the future. I plan to spend some time looking at other e-tailers and the formats they offer, to see what’s compatible with my Device That Shall Not Be Named. ;)
Apr 17, 2009 @ 05:29:40
I use Amazon because I love Amazon Prime. However, I hate dealing with Amazon and what they call customer service.
If any other online bookstore offered something comparable to Amazon Prime, I would switch in a heartbeat.
I don’t have a Kindle, but I do have a Sony Reader 505. Mostly I use it for books that are not available in print. I have had many technical problems with Sony’s store, so I have just about given up on it.