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Thursday News: Feedly & Evernote attacked, abuse allegations against Marion Zimmer...

Note: Some comments contain discussion and descriptions of abuse and sexual assault.

Feedly, Evernote And Others Become Latest Victims Of DDoS Attacks – So in case you haven’t been online in the past two days, Feedly and Evernote were hit with giant DDOS (denial of service) attacks that included a ransom from the attackers. Evernote seems to have recovered relatively quickly, but as of yesterday, Feedly was still trying to work around the attack to get back online. User information was supposedly still secure on both sites. On a side note, Tweetdeck was hacked yesterday, as well, wreaking havoc with people’s RT streams.

These attacks seem to be increasing in frequency, and now leave a long line of victimized sites in their wake, including Meetup, Basecamp, Vimeo, Bit.ly, SAY Media/TypePad, Namecheap, Plenty of Fish and Moz, to name a few of the more recent victims. –Tech Crunch

Marion Zimmer Bradley was a child abuser – says her own daughter – Yesterday it was revealed that Marion Zimmer Bradley allegedly abused, among many others, her own daughter, making her far more than collaterally culpable in her husband’s long history of abusive behavior. In fact, Bradley’s daughter, Moira Greyland, says that her mother was actually worse, because she was an angry and violent abuser. Beyond the horrific nature of these violations, Greyland’s revelations also double down on the question of whether Bradley’s work can be separated from the facts of her life. I often think it’s easier to keep a good opinion of someone’s work is you read it before these types of situations are revealed. But once you know, it becomes very difficult to read the work without having it tainted by the personal details.

Well, for those who argue that the biography or rap sheet doesn’t matter, and that literature is indifferent to the actions and morality of the creator, here’s a test for you. Marion Zimmer Bradley, celebrated science fiction and fantasy author, recipient of the, cofounder of the Society for Creative Anachronism, posthumous recipient of the World Fantasy Award for lifetime achievement, has just been revealed by her own daughter Moira Greyland as a repeat child molester, who not only countenanced her sometime husband Walter Breen‘s relationship with an underage boy, but also violated her own daughter, and other children, of both sexes, repeatedly, over many years. –Tele Read

Amazon Accounts for 60% of Hachette’s eBook Sales in the US, 78% in the UK – So this is pretty interesting. According to an investor’s brief for Hachette’s parent company, “Amazon accounts for around 60% of Hachette’s digital revenues in the US and 78% of digital revenues in the UK,” Nate Hoffelder reports. Which means, among other things, that both Amazon and Hachette have a very substantial investment in making a deal that benefits their own interests. Which probably also means that it’s going to be a long game of chicken between the two corporations.

On a related note, that slide focuses on just the 2 markets because the rest of the markets where Hachette Livre operates have negligible ebook sales. It’s only in the US and UK that ebooks make up 30% and 27%, respectively. –The Digital Reader

LEGO To Release Female Scientist Figurines – Swedish geochemist Dr. Ellen Kooijman came up with a winning idea for Lego Ideas, namely a “Research Institute” populated by female scientists. This is super-cool and much happier news than the rest of the stories today. So go check it out, and decide which of the figurines — astronomer, paleontologist, or chemist — you’re going to buy first when they release in a couple of months.

The motivating behind her submission, she explained on her blog, was that “as a female scientist I had noticed two things about the available LEGO sets: a skewed male/female minifigure ratio and a rather stereotypical representation of the available female figures. It seemed logical that I would suggest a small set of female minifigures in interesting professions to make our LEGO city communities more diverse.” –Mental Floss

isn't sure if she's an average Romance reader, or even an average reader, but a reader she is, enjoying everything from literary fiction to philosophy to history to poetry. Historical Romance was her first love within the genre, but she's fickle and easily seduced by the promise of a good read. She approaches every book with the same hope: that she will be filled from the inside out with something awesome that she didnʼt know, didnʼt think about, or didnʼt feel until that moment. And she's always looking for the next mind-blowing read, so feel free to share any suggestions!

48 Comments

  1. library addict
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 04:48:56

    Yay on more female LEGO mini figures.

    And yay for Evernote and others refusal to pay ransom money.

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  2. sandy l
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 06:08:59

    For me, an author’s actions does affect (effect?) my reading. I still have my first edition of Mists of Avalon. Confession: I couldn’t finish the book, but I was in college at the time and have always meant to return to it. (I think she uses every name ever associated with the legend!) However, I recently heard an interview with a British author who says that most Britain’s consider Mists of Avalon the California Berkeley version of the Arthurian legend.

    The Crystal Cave (although male dominated) still remains my favorite.

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  3. sandy l
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 06:11:28

    …also, I would be curious to hear the response of Diana Paxson (MZB’s sister-in-law and collaborator).

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  4. Teddypig
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 07:06:45

    In regards to Marion Zimmer Bradley… Listen, I saw Mommy Dearest too. That does not mean I bought a damn minute of the thing as truth since the daughter waited till Joan was dead and buried to say anything.

    We all know MZB had incredibly poor taste in the men she married and she probably was a closet lesbian etc etc etc. But no, this “daughter” and I use that term loosely in this regard is trying to make something off her mothers name dragging her through the dirt long after the grave. How honorable,, how brave.

    If you wanted to mud wrestle in public then do it when they can still kick your ass or else it aint a fair fight.

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  5. Lil
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 07:15:18

    In general, I prefer to know little or nothing about the authors whose work I enjoy. I’m not sure it’s possible to keep knowledge of horrendous behavior or beliefs from coloring my reaction to the book/poetry/painting/music/whatever.

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  6. Jane Davitt
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 08:21:08

    Coincidentally, I’ve just finished the second part of William Patterson’s Heinlein bio (sadly, Bill died in April and didn’t get to see it come out) and he references what became known as the Breen Boondoggle. Banning/not banning him from cons split fandom in half.
    http://fancyclopedia.org/breendoggle

    I can’t divide the author from their work and consider the latter objectively. Maybe I should, but I can’t. Their actions and personality inform their work for me. Which is why there are some authors I’ll never read no matter how often they’re praised because seeing their name makes my lip curl. There are plenty of books on my TBR pile; I won’t suffer if it’s reduced.

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  7. Ani Gonzalez
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 08:46:49

    The Marion Zimmer Bradley news come as a shock. I loved her work, and, yes, her actions do affect how I feel about it now.

    Deidre Saoirse Moen broke the news on her blog and she added this in the comments:

    “Many of us have been through some really dark times, and we have the pieces that spoke to our hearts that got us through those times. It genuinely gives me no joy to know that, for those whom MZB’s works were those pieces, I’ve dislodged that for them.”

    A very concise and insightful statement of the effect of the revelations. My heart goes out to MZB’s children.

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  8. cleo
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 08:52:37

    In general, I prefer to separate the art from the artist, but it’s not always possible for me – and in the case of child abuse, it’s almost impossible. I think I have different standards for living and dead artists though. I can kind of imagine re-reading MZB but I would never buy an R Kelly song and I’ve stopped going to Woody Allen movies. I just can’t get past the allegations and I don’t want to feel complicit.

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  9. cleo
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 09:16:33

    The MZB article mentioned Eric Gill (designer of Gill Sans and an important British designer) and reminded me of my moral dilemma the last time I taught History of Graphic Design. To mention that he sexually abused his daughters or not? To mention his disturbing personal life (beyond the abuse)? To skip him in the lecture or not? (the text only spent like a paragraph or two on him and his work). Is it more or less dismissive to mention the abuse in passing in a lecture on early 20th C modernist design or not mention it at all? In the end I didn’t mention it because I couldn’t come up with a way to do it that felt appropriate, but it still bothers me.

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  10. Cynthia Sax
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 09:44:20

    When I was solely a reader, I preferred to know nothing about writers’ personal lives.

    Now that I’m a writer and immersed fully in Romanceland, it is very difficult to separate the writer from her work, especially when she’s talking about building healthy lasting relationships (the romance HEA).

    No one is perfect and yes, many writers (myself included) are a wee bit nuts (we invent imaginary characters and then torture them – that isn’t exactly sane) but there are some actions I can’t excuse. Abusing children is one of them.

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  11. Karenmc
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 10:24:44

    I haven’t been able to listen to a Mama’s and Papa’s song since the Mackenzie Phillips revelations about her father.

    And I’d never heard about the creator of Gill Sans. Now I’ll wince a bit when I use it.

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  12. Diana
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 14:48:46

    Ughhhhh… More abuse in the news. For myself, I can’t separate the author/artist from their work, especially when I know that reading, watching or listening to the work generally benefits the person financially. I don’t listen to Chris Brown’s music, watch Woody Allen films or watch anything ever by Roman Polanski. Also Bryan Singer. I guess I will add MZB to the list.

    This is probably because I worked as a therapist for victims of sexual abuse. I’ve seen the lifetime effects from acts of sexual assault and domestic violence, and I can’t bring myself to support people connected with that as abusers, ever, in any form.

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  13. MaryK
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 15:29:56

    I read excerpts from the Bradley deposition. Horrible. That on its own, regardless of the new allegations, is enough to give me a disgust for her and her work.

    I can sort of understand how someone who read her work before finding out about her life can separate the two. Sort of, I mean, wouldn’t you be reminded of the horribleness every time you tried to reread?

    But, in no way, can I understand how her contemporaries could celebrate her work while knowing about her life. Celebrating someone while they’re around to benefit from it is tantamount to supporting them in their life, IMO.

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  14. Susan/DC
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 17:43:52

    I have no idea if the revelations about MZB are true or not. All too often such allegations are manufactured memories, but also all too often they are reality. It’s a tragedy either way, and no one comes away looking good.

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  15. Annamal
    Jun 12, 2014 @ 19:18:13

    @Susan/DC:

    You know what? I think any victim of abuse who is willing to expose themselves to the kind of crud that people like Teddypig sling around in order to set the record straight comes away looking pretty goddamn brave.

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  16. Signify
    Jun 19, 2014 @ 19:40:24

    Posting to second what Annamal said. I read the deposition of the Bradley/Breen sexual abuse lawsuit years ago. It was not only clear that Bradley knew of her husband’s abusive behavior, but it was also clear that she abused her own children.

    Moira, wherever you are, hope and love.

    Teddypig, grow a soul.

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  17. Benandante
    Jun 21, 2014 @ 10:15:19

    MZB herself testified that she abused her kids and knew that her husband was having sex with them and other children but did nothing.

    The testimony is readily available online and makes horrifying reading.

    What is more horrifying is delving into the history of this and finding out how many people attacked the character of the children this couple raped, said they deserved it or that they started it. Some very famous science fiction people condemned the rape victims, and some still support Bradley and Breen to this day.

    It is hardly surprising that the abused child of a famous, powerful, influential person would not reveal her abuse until much later. In fact, this is normal for child abuse victims.

    It is also, tragically, normal for some to sneer at people who reveal rape and abuse after the assailant is dead. I suspect that many victims of famous, powerful, and well-protected people, especially victims who were children at the time, have been cowed and frightened and shamed into silence by just this sort of reaction.

    How useful to sexual predators to know that even after they are dead people will attempt to silence their victims for them.

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  18. Willaful
    Jun 21, 2014 @ 12:39:06

    I’ve been debating whether or not to speak up about this but… I don’t think anyone can understand how rampant and pervasive sexual abuse of children was in that time and place unless they were there. I was there. I was a child there. The adults I lived with — communal living, mostly — were full of crazy, self-serving philosophies about children and free sexuality. There were no boundaries. I still have problems with boundaries, because I never learned any.

    Some of the adults I know from that time — women, generally — are aghast about what they thought and how they behaved, and have tried to make up for it. Others — men, generally — are still convinced they were right and are shocked that it blew up in their faces. I would hazard a guess that people who received a lot of praise and adulation were less likely to ever come to the realization that they had been fucked up, but that’s only a guess.

    I went to school with Bradley’s daughter for a time, and she and I were friendly, but we haven’t seen each other in decades. Still, I absolutely believe what she’s said. Because I was there.

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  19. Ros
    Jun 21, 2014 @ 13:02:13

    @Willaful: Thank you for speaking up to say this.

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  20. cleo
    Jun 21, 2014 @ 13:49:24

    @Willaful – I second Ros’ comment. I’m glad you shared this.

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  21. Ana
    Jun 21, 2014 @ 14:03:21

    @Willaful: thank you for sharing. You are brave and I am thankful.

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  22. MaryK
    Jun 21, 2014 @ 14:34:19

    @Benandante: “victims of famous, powerful, and well-protected people, especially victims who were children at the time”

    I’m not surprised if victims wait until their abusers are dead. Who would want the attention of the protectors and fans?

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  23. Sean Kennedy
    Jun 22, 2014 @ 05:27:43

    Oh, TP, always the voice of reason at a party! Those damn hysterical lying wimenz, amirite? It’s not like there isn’t, say, evidence against the MZB claims or something?

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  24. Janine
    Jun 24, 2014 @ 12:23:36

    Just catching up to this thread.

    Willaful, thank you for your brave comment.

    Teddy Pig and Susan D/C — there is plenty of evidence against Marion Zimmer Bradley. Read the depositions posted or linked to on Dierdre Saoirse Moen’s thread and Moira Greyland’s comments, emails and poetry on the subject. No one would make this up. The Breendoggle Document and the Breendoggle Wiki are also horrifying.

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  25. Teddypig
    Jun 27, 2014 @ 20:32:05

    Sean Kennedy always a way with words too bad you never use that skill in a book. You do realize little boys get abused too right?

    I was sexually abused by an aunt and an uncle and when I heard a discussion going on in the family about one of my female cousins claiming that same uncle did it again I came forward and supported her claim and gave a full description of what he had done to me. Did that stop me spending years feeling like it was my fault… blah blah blah… NOPE. I went through all kinds of emotional shit and suicidal crap. I eventually got over it all despite how uncomfortable my addressing the issue out loud in the family went over… well sorta he died recently and I had to explain to my father and I am 50 years old mind you… like hell I was showing up for the funeral and remind him of the issues I experienced in that relationship.

    My point still is you show strength of character by confronting the person while they are alive while the issue is kinda appropriate to the matter of how you deal with that person. You are explaining your actions because there are real honest to god reasons for not including that person in anything involving you. You get healing from confronting “the secret” head on in public facing whatever excuses or attacks from the accused in a direct and open fashion or as in my case with the added bonus of uncomfortable silence of your family to the news.

    You are pretty much creating drama after the fact in my opinion if you wait for them to die before saying anything publicly like it was some after thought that really did not matter that much to you.

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  26. Teddypig
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 08:20:30

    Edited by Robin to Add: This comment contains direct references to testimony of abuse in the MZB case.

    Since everyone is bringing up the court documents and all is prrof MZB did everything Moira said lets look at what is actually stated…

    Q. Could you please tell me what Moira Breen told you about her belief that she had been a victim of satanic ritual abuse? (Moira Greyland)

    A. She said that some men in white robes tied her up and hung her on the wall and poured hot coffee on her and spilled, I think, spilled hot wax on her skin and killed a baby in front of her and killed a grown-up in front of her and gave her something to eat and told her — something to eat — some funny meat and told her it was her baby brother, and she has never had a baby brother. She said a lot of stuff, and none of it made sense.

    http://www.sff.net/people/stephen.goldin/mzb/lisa_excerpts.html

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  27. Sean Kennedy
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 10:34:29

    TP, if that works for you, then great, But you can’t dictate that for everyone else – and we all know you love to. Don’t you have to go and yell at some more kids to get off your lawn or something?

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  28. Teddypig
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 10:49:56

    “if that works for you”

    It has to because it is my life and my experience. I do not dictate, I hold people accountable for what they say there is a difference.

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  29. Sean Kennedy
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 11:21:07

    Potayto.

    Potahto.

    You can sing the rest.

    ReplyReply

  30. Teddypig
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 12:06:11

    Don’t write for a dictionary then. Their standards are higher.

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  31. Sean Kennedy
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 12:45:02

    That’ll do, Pig.

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  32. MY
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 15:25:46

    @Teddypig:

    You do dictate. You’ve already determined how people “get healing,” stating that it’s by confronting the secret “head on in public facing whatever excuses or attacks from the accused in a direct and open fashion or as in my case with the added bonus of uncomfortable silence of your family to the news.”

    It surprises me that after what you’ve been through, you feel right about judging how other people cope with the very same experience. That’s like telling another patient with the same kind of cancer that they should be taking your drug just because it works so well for you.

    Healing, whether it’s physical, mental, or emotional, doesn’t work identically for every human soul, and at your age, you don’t already realize that? That surprises me, too.

    And Sean, your pithy response reminded me of a line from Anne of Ingleside:

    ‘”Pig, hush!” ordered Alice terribly . . . very terribly, although very quietly and sweetly and gently.’

    Maybe not an appropriate quote at the moment, but the sentiment applies. Show some human compassion, Teddy. If you can’t, the kindest thing to do is be quiet.

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  33. Teddypig
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 15:34:22

    I did not cope by telling complete strangers that worked for my mother that I suffered from satanic ritual abuse. The allegations are all there recounted by a third party who gave her honest opinion of the daughters credibility with no motivation for malice.

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  34. Janet
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 15:39:47

    Note: reference to rape and rape laws in this comment.

    This idea that it’s somehow cowardly to report abuse after the abuser is dead reminds me of the era of rape laws that required physical evidence that the victim fought the rape. Because a woman of character resists or fights back, right?

    Except that every woman reacts differently to being attacked, and some literally freeze physically, absolutely incapable of doing anything else. Others submit in fear for their life. Others are intoxicated to the point of incapacity. Assuming they live through the attack, of course.

    The only people who were encouraged to continue with their behavior with those laws were the rapists. Moreover, the stigma of those laws still hangs over the way sexual assault is treated by the courts, by society, and by survivors, who, IMO, should be the last ones subjected to a ‘strength of character’ test. Or rather, let’s acknowledge that they already passed it by surviving the rape.

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  35. Teddypig
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 15:51:38

    “Because a woman of character resists or fights back, right?”

    Why would I insist a woman fight back? I did not fight back. I went along with the program. As I stated clearly I thought it was my fault for years. I thought “I” was the problem.

    The fact is if I heard my female cousin was stating she was abused by that same uncle and NOT said anything. Would I consider myself a coward then? Yes! I would be a coward for not speaking up.

    Your talking law. I am talking about what I think.

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  36. Teddypig
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 15:57:28

    You also have to remember the uncle was the second part of two different people doing this to me so yeah I thought it was me.

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  37. Janine
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 16:15:08

    @Teddypig: I am very sorry to hear that that happened to you. Can you not extend your compassion and your empathy to other abuse survivors? Not everyone can or wants to confront their abusers during the abuser’s lifetime. Some choose not to reveal abuse or rape to their other family members for fear it would hurt them or even cause them to commit murder.

    There is a culture of silence and secrecy around abuse, and many cultures also teach that respect and honor are automatically due one’s parents no matter what kind of parents they are, just for being one’s parents. It’s even one of the ten commandments.

    On top of that, mothers in particular have enormous power over their children because the degree of access to them in their formative years is so great. Even after we grow up and leave home, many of us internalize the lessons our parents instilled in us. To confront a parent over childhood abuse is enormously difficult for many, many reasons.

    Everyone has a different way of healing, and a different way of dealing with having been abused. Even a person who has been through it hasn’t walked a mile in another abuse survivor’s shoes. For what possible motive would anyone lie about having survived childhood sexual abuse, when it means they face so much social stigma and being shamed by others?

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  38. Teddypig
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 16:22:01

    “There is a culture of silence and secrecy around abuse”
    You are so right in fact I think it is poisonous which is why I try to make an effort to talk about my experience openly which is what I am doing and being honest about my thoughts on the matter.

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  39. Teddypig
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 16:29:16

    Listen folks this comment system sucks for any extended conversation so if you want to yell at me for being blunt or something feel free to bitch at me on my blog. Anyway, thanks

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  40. hapax
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 18:27:07

    To me, the most horrible part of the chronic child abuse in the MZB circle was the reading (in the posted “Breendoggle” documents) how many, many adults witnessed it occurring and said and did NOTHING. (Except maybe to tell their OWN children to stay in their rooms and lock the doors when certain visitors came over).

    The attitudes expressed — “the children are too young to be psychologically damaged” “the children seemed to enjoy the attention” “nobody wanted to criticize how others received sexual gratification” — must have added to the burdens of guilt and shame and fear suffered by the victims.

    It’s no wonder that such victims would choose not to speak out until much later. They must have expected to be victimized again, by disbelief and criticism.

    Too bad that so many people are STILL hellbent on proving those sad expectations to be correct. :-(

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  41. Ann Somerville
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 18:36:20

    This comment contains direct references to testimony of abuse in the MZB case.

    I can’t believe I’m doing this – responding to someone I despise in a venue for which I have no respect – but it’s too important not to respond to the atrocious statements being made by Teddy Pig. (For the record, I believe his statement regarding his abuse. I do not accept this gives him any right to use his experiences to revictimise other child victims of sex abuse. That’s an act of abuse in itself, and utterly shameful.)

    “I did not cope by telling complete strangers that worked for my mother that I suffered from satanic ritual abuse.”

    Several issues with this assessment. One: ‘Lisa’ is Elizabeth (Lisa) Waters. “Ms. Waters was Marion’s lover and secretary, and earns a significant portion of her current income from administering Marion’s estate.” So not exactly a complete stranger nor simply someone “worked for my mother”. Not an objective observer either. And yet you believe Lisa when she says Moira “said a lot of stuff, and none of it made sense.”

    Lisa is the main beneficiary of MZB’s estate. None of MZB’s children get a cent from it.

    Two: You complained Moira should have made a report “when they can still kick your ass”, ie when her mother was still alive. Well, she did tell people. She told Lisa (from Lisa’s own deposition) that her father fed her drugs, told her mother that her father abused boys. Moira says “I put Walter in jail for molesting one boy. I had tried to intervene when I was 13 by telling Mother and Lisa, and they just moved him into his own apartment.”

    Moira also told her mother that Breen assaulted her:

    8 Q. Did you ever discuss it with anybody prior to

    9 Ken Smith’s molestation being made known to you?

    10 A. Not –

    11 Yes.

    12 Q. Okay. Who Did you discuss that with?

    13 A. With my daughter, Moira.

    14 Q. When did you discuss it with Moira?

    15 A. I think it was –

    16 It was shortly before her marriage.

    17 Q. Before what?

    18 A. Before her marriage.

    19 Q. Okay. And what was the reason that you and

    20 Moira discussed that?

    21 A. She made an allegation that her father had

    22 molested her.

    23 Q. Was that before or after Ken Smith’s

    24 molestation was reported to the police?

    25 A. I have no idea.

    So Moira tried to tell people. And each and every time she was blown off or her concerns minimized. You will also note the cold way MZB talks about Moira’s allegation, as if it was nothing of interest and importance.

    You told people, Teddy, presumably your parents, about your uncle’s abuse, and fortunately and unusually you were believed. What if it had been your parents doing the abusing? Who would you have told? What if you told your mother your father abused you, do you think the usual response is for the mother to take action? The usual response is for nothing to happen at all, or the child to be punished for ‘lying’ – you know, like Moira is assumed to be.

    I thought the new improved Dear Author didn’t allow personal attacks. Yet Teddy Pig has defamed Moira Greyland and attacked Sean Kennedy, without anyone censoring him. One rule for some commenters, another for others?

    “feel free to bitch at me on my blog.”

    Yeah but no. If you haven’t got the courage to defend your cowardly attacks on people where you make them, then you don’t get to invite people to your pig pen so your handpicked supporters can rip them to shreds.

    (Also for the record I was the victim of prolonged physical and emotional abuse as a child – though not of sexual abuse – and when I told people as a child, I was ignored. When I tried to talk to my father about it as an adult, he threw me out of the family. And when I tried to raise it after his death this year, I was disbelieved. This is what happens to abused kids. I believe Moira Greyland.)

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  42. Ann Somerville
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 18:48:55

    This comment contains direct references to testimony of abuse in the MZB case.

    also from this

    Q. Do you have any information that would pertain to Marion Zimmer Bradley having any sexual interaction with Moira Stern?

    A. No.

    Q. Have you ever heard that issue discussed at any time?

    A. I have heard Moira say some things about it.

    Q. What have you heard Moira say about it?

    A. She said that one time her mother fondled her breasts while she was in the shower.

    Q. Anything else?

    A. That Moira said to me, no.

    Q. Okay. Did you ever ask Marion if any of that was true?

    A. Yes.

    Q. What did Marion say?

    A. She said that children before the age of puberty didn’t have erogenous zones.

    also:

    Q. What age did you understand that she was talking about?

    A. Nine.

    Q. So do you understand that Moira alleged that Marion had done this when she was about nine?

    A. Yes.

    And:

    Q. Had you ever heard that Moira was of the belief that her mother attacked her with a pair of pliers?

    A. I think the story you’re talking about is that her mother tied her to a chair and threatened to pull out her teeth with pliers but did not actually touch her.

    Q. Had you heard that story before?

    A. Yes, from Marion. She was deeply ashamed of it.

    So we have evidence from ‘Lisa’ that Moira had reported sexual and physical abuse to her, and in one case that was confirmed by MZB. Since Moira was not lying in that case, or about Breen’s abuse of children, why is it assumed she lied about other things?

    The only reason to assume she is lying is because it is convenient to the listener to assume that. There is no objective evidence whatsoever of dishonesty.

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  43. Robin/Janet
    Jun 28, 2014 @ 20:20:15

    @Teddypig: Your talking law. I am talking about what I think.

    Actually, I’m talking about how we structure credibility (and the history of sexual assault laws are a great way to look at that, especially since the presumptive victim is female). The more obstacles there are to reporting, the less incentive victims have to report, and the more likely it is that they will not report at all. Or they will report only when they no longer fear the retribution of abusers who already make them feel powerless and the judgment of a community that offers so few circumstances under which they will be believed. So on a purely practical level, if you want the silence around abuse to end, that means people need to be encouraged to talk, which, if anything, means we need to broaden, not narrow, the conditions under which they do.

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  44. Teddypig
    Jun 29, 2014 @ 07:09:41

    @Robin/Janet:

    Right, but I was dealing with something in that family not a police officer. What I am talking about is simply surviving the crap dealing with the fallout and feeling good about yourself long enough to get some professional counseling later in life and moving on. I can only try to fix me not the social stigma.

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  45. Janine
    Jun 29, 2014 @ 13:33:50

    @Teddypig: Right now you are contributing to that social stigma.

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  46. Teddypig
    Jun 29, 2014 @ 17:36:59

    Janine when people come at me with the whole “Live Journal Expert” deal I change the channel. You are just attacking me and no I do not appreciate it.

    I have explained my opinion and the reasons why I have that opinion and I do not remember asking for your help on anything else.

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  47. Ann Somerville
    Jun 29, 2014 @ 17:48:04

    “I do not remember asking for your help on anything else. ”

    No one asked for your opinion or help either, Teddy.

    You attack people and we’re supposed to sit with folded hands while the ‘man’ speaks. You defame abuse victims, you insult and personally attack someone as a writer when they criticise you, and you ignore the testimony of other victims.

    And I don’t want your ‘help’ or opinion. Your views have triggered and upset me, and doubtless many other survivors of childhood abuse and really it would be better if you stayed schtum than contribute to our pain the way you have.

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  48. Jane
    Jun 29, 2014 @ 21:53:41

    This is a very sensitive topic and it’s important to remember that when making comments, particularly about personal experiences. If we can’t be civil, then we’ll close the comment thread.

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