To the Ja(y)nes, et al: everybody luvs ya, baby!

Dear Author is one of my go-to-every-day sites. The reviews have their own inherent authenticity, hence integrity.

I don’t read everything, but I am glad everything is there. I suspect I’ll start reading manga one day; if I hadn’t come to DA, I know I never would.

And I understand this is only tangentially related to the topic, but count me as one who would not at all mind a little advertising on the site. You might never get paid for all the time you put into it, but who could resent you recapturing your costs?????

I’d say 75% of the threads follow the same pattern; the posters are almost always the same 20 or so readers; first a few complimentary remarks on the review from old-time posters, then a few jokey comments making corrections to the reviewer’s text, then (like unattended, quarrelsome children), the same 10-15 posters start picking apart the reviewer (or for variety, they pick apart the first 10 posters…..) and away we go. Like a book club meeting without a facillitator, like a town meeting without the mayor, like a evening supper discussion at the Waltons without a parent present…..

People get completely off-topic (and gentle reminders don’t rein them back in), people get petty and insulting and even foul-mouthed sometimes (and presumably so wound up that several deliberate postings on other topics sail right past them and they insist on resuming their tirades). If the lucid writers in the group do get back to making valid points, they feel the need to repeat them over and over. At which point, one of more excitable posters jumps in to pick apart one small item in the post of the lucid writers….and we’re off again.

I’ve read so many lovely, intellectually stimulating posts following a really well-written review or Letter of Opinion, only to find the thread almost immediately highjacked by posters whose excitability makes their prose break down into petty, childish bickering. What is wrong with you people? You’re online, for God’s sake! Is this how you’d make your point in a blue book at a midterm exam? Must you beat your point to death with line after line of repetitious prose that makes you so charged up about that you can’t really take the time to formulate your submission into SHORT coherent sentences? This is not life or death, will not affect your colledge GPA, or change the amount of your year-end compensation. So cool down. And if you give yourself 5 minutes of calm thought, maybe walking way from the thread would occur to you as being a good idea. You think?

With regard to the current issue, yes, I think your review was appropriate, yes, you gave sufficient information for us to judge the integrity of your review, and yes, my feeling is that the posters should have limited themselves to commenting on your praise or criticism of the book and/or the author, not on the personal or professional life of the DA reviewer. And, speaking personally, I definitely don’t allow DA to be the sole arbitrator of my book spending habits. If something doesn’t ring true or I’m unable to make up my mind, I have mags, library handouts, newspapers, other review venues to check out. If you’re feeling that excitable and still have more spleen to vent, do it to your family or call a book club member, or switch over to another blog, for heaven’s sake!

Perhaps you (the royal you – Jia, Jayne, Jane, et al.) should rework your bios that follow every review, in the interest of fuller disclosure. THEN – like the really wise woman from a few days ago who said (on a completely unrelated thread – wait, it was for (and to) a Tymber ??? book): “Hon, repeat after me. ‘Thank you for taking the time to read my book and review. I’m sorry you didn’t care for it but I appreciate the time you took to review it.’ That’s it. The End. She advised Tymber to come to a FULL STOP after that. Great advice. I see Nora R. used the exact words lately in response to someone’s review of the new “InDeath” book. So here’s my rewording I suggest you use: “I appreciate your reading and commenting on my review. We obviously have different feelings about the merits of this novel. Thanks for sharing.” The end. Full Stop.

You seemed to ascribe value to the reviews in these publications that I don't think they have to many readers because they see these as dependent on the advertisers and the integrity of their reviews as being questionable because of that commercial relationship they have with the publishers whose books they review.

Well, you may not, and I may not have a big investment in some of them, but many readers clearly do. In fact, I’d be pretty comfortable betting that there are more than a few readers who won’t read DA but who very much trust RT, PW, Kirkus, and other venues. And in some of those cases, IMO it’s the opacity of the reviewing structure — the lack of personal attribution, the lack o reviewer interface with readers, the short length of reviews — actually, and IMO ironically, adds to the sense of veracity or professionalism. While I may not put a lot of investment in some of these pubs (although I am a total sucker for the NYTBR), I don’t think it’s invalid to bring them up in a discussion about what constitutes ethical reviewing within a certain fiction-centered community. And I’m actually pretty interested in knowing why some readers prefer, for example, RT reviews to PW, or PW to DA, or whatever.

I also think that it’s precisely the commercial contacts that give some of these pubs credibility among certain readers and/or in certain circles. Which may be the opposite of where you stand, but I’ve seen more than a few times popularity grow based on a *perception* of credibility, often conferred through some sense of commercial approval. In the case of DA, I think there’s more of a sense of “of the people, by the people” among its readers, which is one of the things I think we reviewers love about the site (and about Jane’s commitment to keeping it reader-centric). But it also can create a different set of expectations that emerge from that sense of accessibility and authenticity. It’s that conundrum whereby if people respect you, at some point you’re probably going to disappoint them, because as expectations grow among many, those divergent expectations can only be partially met at any point in time, simply because no site can be all things to all readers simultaneously (or ever). And I can tell you that it would be crazy-making to try to achieve every reader’s expectation, in part because it’s impossible, but also because at some point there has to be a balance comfortable to both the bloggers and the readers, and that balance isn’t going to be satisfactory to everyone.

As Jane said above, part of the issue for me is that many of the ethical considerations we wrestle with aren’t seen by readers, nor will they likely ever be if we are doing what we’re doing well, IMO. Which means that when and if we do make some sort of disclosure, lots of of things have been discussed and decided that readers haven’t seen, which may create a sense of false expectations on the part of readers who want us to be more public in our decision-making to make sure we’re being ethically upright. And that’s why I made my first comment, because IMO that’s problematic for other ethical reasons.

I am always surprised when people ascribe certain influence or power to DA

I’m glad you answered, because that was in no way what I was referring to with my comment.

My concern was specifically with the examples you raised as review entities in which you seem to assume that readers place their trust. I was addressing the fact that as DA’s readership increases more ‘commercial’ relationships (such as the one with Sony) may develop with publishers as they realize that they can reach their target audience through you like they do with RT, PW, Kirkus and NYTimes, relationships which could be construed to negatively impact DA’s status of independent reader reviewers who aren’t compensated for their efforts.

I don’t think that DA has any plans to become a commercial outfit, dependent on advertiser or anything like that, and the point I was – obviously unsuccessfully – trying to make was that I disagreed with your underlying assumption that the review publications you cited are trusted by readers.

You seemed to ascribe value to the reviews in these publications that I don’t think they have to many readers because they see these as dependent on the advertisers and the integrity of their reviews as being questionable because of that commercial relationship they have with the publishers whose books they review.

I hope that clarifies my original point.

As to the influence DA has or doesn’t have, I do think that with increased readership there is increased influence for DA as a blog, because just as I know that I have picked up a considerable number of books over the period of my readership here that I wouldn’t have either known about or was totally uninclined to read until DA posted one or several reviews, so I’ve seen other readers state that they have done the same. That translates into dollars for both publishers and authors and influence for DA because your reviews have shaped our buying behavior.

Certainly, the campaign to save the contemporary is not undertaken to not have positive influence on the sales figures of contemporaries in general and the specific titles chosen!?

DA and Jane in particular are doing a great job of putting out content that the readership connects to and is interested in, but there are issues and pitfalls when a blog gets to a certain level of popularity and needs to find revenue sources to pay for site maintenance, etc. while staying independent of commercial interests and I think Jane is very aware of those which is evidenced by posts as the one which initiated this long comment thread.

My browser is permanently opened to DA and I spend a lot of time reading reviews, comments, news, etc. every day. I’ve seen the changes that have happened over the last 2 years and more changes are inevitable as DA grows and evolves. It’s been an interesting journey and I look forward to where you guys will take me next.

With the increase in attention DA gets, there will be more situations that could make a review as suspect as those of the entities you mentioned in your post are to me. So far I've seen only one review on DA that I felt should have better stayed unpublished in this venue.

I actually read your comment a couple of days ago when it posted, GrowlyCub, and was going to avoid this, but I’ve decided to address it, after all.

I think that so-called popular blogs sometimes end up in a position where some assume that they have a certain power that may not be felt by the bloggers. IMO the same is true of authors, who readers often see as more powerful, but authors often communicate a feeling of being less powerful than readers. It’s one of those *perceived* relative power offsets, and I’m not sure there’s a good way around it.

I am always surprised when people ascribe certain influence or power to DA, for example, because I know I hardly feel powerful as a reader or reviewer. I don’t even think in those terms, actually, except when I want everyone in the world to read a book I love and I lament not being Queen (or its functional equivalent in whatever system you fancy).

So I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that whatever enhanced popularity among readers DA might enjoy would compromise its reviewers’ fairness or commitment to readers first. I have to tell you that from my perspective, DA reviewers are incredibly unruffled and unfazed by authors and the like. Not that we’re not great fans of the genre, and don’t find many authors clearly likeable, but I think we’re pretty level-headed about other people. That may not reassure you, but I have to say that I think all of those associated with DA are committed to keeping this a reader-centered blog.

With regards to your last post to me:
“What I have read from your past comments which started with the DON review, is that our site might not be able to meet your stated preference for reviewers regarding their familiarity with books; the amount of disclosure that we provide; and the overall ethical principles by which we govern ourselves. If that is the case, then I would urge you to seek out communities other than Dear Author. If that is not the case, and I have misinterpreted you, I apologize and hope that you will continue to be a member of our community”

I have been coming here for years and only posted for the first time for DON. I believe all my comments on that thread and this one have been limited to the issue of reviewer ethics and author relationships. I can’t help but start to feel personally targeted because I specifically mentioned Sarah F and the DON review. And I want to give you the benefit of the doubt Jane because in the past, whether addressing me (in the only 2 threads I’ve ever posted in! LOL!) or others you’ve always been very fair.

You started this post on ethics and I gave my opinion which not only other readers agree with but also other reviewers on this site who (including you I believe? sorry getting you all mixed up) have mentioned stepping aside when they feel the personal relationship could be an issue. So why am I the only one being told that my standards may not fit the DA community? My views seem to be part of the majority and can essentially be boiled down to this:
If readers discount, either with a grain of salt, in part or in whole a review because of a disclosed ‘relationship’ b/w reviewer and author, then at the end of the day what’s the point in publishing the review?

The only other point I made was for my preference for reviewers, who are familiar with a series, to do the reviews and I really don’t understand why you find that offensive or controversial or that would lead you to believe that I should not be a part of your community. I’m honestly asking here because the issue of reviewers and series has come up on other sites and many readers have an opinion on it. Since publishers no longer publish many stand alone titles this is an issue that will become more relevant for readers and reviewers (Perhaps I should have distinguished between a series like JR Ward’s and a trilogy by Allison Brennan – the former requires much greater knowledge of the characters and themes IMO)

And I was hardly stating that if a reviewer hasn’t read previous books in a series I would never come back to this site again!! I was stating my preference and opinion like everyone else had.

So which part of all of my comments are so out of sync with everyone else? Because if they are I’m just not getting it.

I gave up reviewing for a site because I found I was too conflicted about writing honest reviews when I had gotten the books for ‘free' or was friendly with the authors, which doesn't mean others have to feel the same way. However, the argument that it's better not to review resonates with me, if the question of whether or not a relationship with the author, or a bias against or a preference for a certain story line/author could compromise the review comes up in the reviewers' mind or that of their associates

Growlyclub, is this your lost post

I completely agree with you sentiments. I tried to convey how I felt when posting about books that author’s sent me for free or when I knew that author.

Once you have felt the conflicts, then you pretty much think that others will feel the same way (don’t know if that is true or not). . .but it makes you suspect. . and then you wonder are they being as honest as they would be if they didn’t know the author.

I think your first comment to Willow sounded a bit like ‘if you don’t like it, go play elsewhere’ so I am glad you clarified.

As a reader, I see this from two directions. In one sense, I think that a review written by someone who hasn’t read a series in total can be very helpful because a) IMO how stand alone the books are will determine whether anyone can jump into the series, b) a newbie may be more or less critical of things series readers are used to and may not notice anymore, c) the new reader will not be burdened or enhanced with the knowledge of other books, which can provide a new lens through which even seasoned readers to read.

In another sense, the veteran series reader a) can communicate certain nuances to other veterans, b) will judge things in totality of the series, and c) may know better what is and isn’t a spoiler within the context of a series book.

As a reviewer, I enjoy doing both kind of reviews, and honestly feel that if a series book cannot withstand a read and review from a new to the series reader, then that is something important to know. But I realize that the comfort and knowledge of a veteran series reader can be great, too. Although there is a challenge in that, too, from a reviewing perspective, which is that if the review is too skewed to series readers, it can, IMO, be off-putting to readers who may not have picked up the series yet. So, yeah, I don’t think it’s a clear-cut thing, but I appreciate a reviewer telling me if they’re a reader or the series or not, since that can be helpful to me as a reader (and IMO a good idea for me as a reviewer).

I’m happy to hear critique. I haven’t deleted anyone’s comments unlike some blogs do. I haven’t tried to suppress debate. I’ve absorbed people’s comments but for some reason (probably because I had the time to do so), I did respond to you and Willow.

DA started as a reader opinion blog and will always be a reader opinion blog. We strive hard to be ethical and above board (hence the disclaimers) and we are open to hearing other’s opinions and having a discussion about a broad variety of topics.

I am honestly not trying to be critical, contrary, derogatory, sarcastic. . (pick a word)

I am humbling, trying to make sense of this whole thread. . .

Why post something about transparency, consistency, community (and maybe I don’t understand what you mean by that). Ethics was mentioned in your posts too. . .

On one hand you mention an individual stepping aside and not reviewing books because she knows the authors, but then another one says it is okay.

Are you just wanting to say, that as the blog owners you have the best judgment regarding ethics? You know where the line is? If that is the case (and it is your blog, and you guys are volunteers) why the discussion? It almost seems that you don’t want to hear any critique of the way things have been done before but you opened it up for discussion?

I get the Jane/Jayne mixed up so I can’t tell you who actually wrote another review on SB’s DoN. And personally, I thought that the end result was handled very well.

I can read opinions all day long, telling me how horrible the book is, and how wonderful the book is. Bottom line for me. . . an opinion is different from a review.
Amazon’s reviews by readers are different from me going to a official review site. .
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I don’t have any problem with them being presented as such. Review to me is more official, more bound by ethics, and a sense of being unbias.

I don’t have a problem with your site posting opinions all day long, by the author’s BFF as long as I know that it is an opinion.

Personally, the reviews/opinions are not what bring me here. It is the thought provoking issues.

I have asked for opinions because it serves as a good gut check. Is what I’m doing in line with the thinking of the community here at Dear Author since ethics is a community issue rather than a generalized standard. In reading the comments, I think that there are some things we already do and some things we can’t do and some things that maybe we can do better at in the future.

As for my relationships with authors, yes, I do think that keeping confidences is in line with being transparent. In other words, if I have a relationship with an author or a business wherein I have a financial interest, I should say so. I’ve done that with Sony. If you look at the sidebar, I am clear about what we receive/achieve through Amazon affiliate program.

The great thing about the burgeoning romance community is that there are several different websites that provide different points of view, different content, different sets of guidelines. If one site doesn’t meet the reader’s personal set of ethics, then there are others out there that are a better fit. What I have read from your past comments which started with the DON review, is that our site might not be able to meet your stated preference for reviewers regarding their familiarity with books; the amount of disclosure that we provide; and the overall ethical principles by which we govern ourselves. If that is the case, then I would urge you to seek out communities other than Dear Author. If that is not the case, and I have misinterpreted you, I apologize and hope that you will continue to be a member of our community.

Jane’s review was a lot more helpful — at least to me. More balanced, more informative. And I’m on the fence about whether or not people should have read all the books in a series — maybe in a perfect world, which this isn’t.

Willow does ask a great question though — why post a blog about the subject and then sorta slap down Willow for her thoughts? She’s been polite, clear, thoughtful — and of course you can disagree with her — clearly you and Robin and Dr. Sarah F probably do — but to say “This isn’t the site for you” … that seemed a little harsh. Just my opinion.

Your original post said this:

“I guess the question that is put to you, the reader/consumer of reviews, is what do you need to know in order to appropriately weigh the review? What's important in terms of ethics/transparency/bias/consistency, etc.? If you were to prescribe a set of reviewing ethics, what would they be? How would you change things here at Dear Author, if you could?”

You asked for opinions and I gave you mine. I explained what I was looking for reviews and what I wasn’t. I’m terribly, terribly sorry to have burdened you with an opinion you clearly didn’t want to hear.

Now I have to ask, is this personal? Because I called out Sarah F for what I feel was an inappropriate review? I ask since I seem to be the only one being told that Dear Author is not the place for me even though many above have expressed similar view points.

If you feel that your relationships with authors are no ones business but your own, and you are happy with how the site is run why bother having this discussion on ethics/transparency/consistency???

I’m not alone in my thinking, this subject was also discussed recently on the Karen Knows Best blog and almost unanimously people said if a reviewer has a relationship with an author, they would prefer them not to review their work.

And I’ve been coming to this site for many years, enjoying the reviews, DON was the first review that I’ve had problems with. So I’m actually not ignorant of your site and yes I can be easily satisfied with proper disclosure.

PS: Why you seem offended by my PREFERENCE that reviewers are familiar with a series I can’t comprehend. Lots of readers prefer this and when you asked for opinions on the review process I must have missed the section where you explained what your site is and is not capable of, and specifically what opinions you were looking for. My bad.