Your not so subtle jab at bi and lesbian m/m authors was just catty and bitter. You're not a better lesbian, if in fact you are a lesbian, just because you write femmeslash. I'm an asexual, aromantic, genderqueer female m/m author. Sexual orientation, or lack thereof, has absolutely nothing to do with what one enjoys writing.

Where have I jabbed at lesbian and bi writers of m/m? The most I’ve done is speculate on why they would prefer to exclusively write stories about men over ones about women. If I’m totally off-base in that, they’re free to set me straight. The comment about “Chippendale dancers and hen parties” was out of one of their own mouths, not mine. How is that not a jab at straight women? I mean, she was basically implying she can’t relate to the average woman (and no, I’m not a lesbian) because all we care about is drinking coffee and blathering about babies and the PTA whilst marveling over the latest advancements in Tupperware.

I agree that people, regardless of their orientation, should write what they want. I believe readers and publishers should read and publish what they want. I have more than once on this thread expressed my pleasure at the success m/m is enjoying. And again, it wasn’t my intention to turn this m/m thread into the “Kirsten is living in a dream world, when will she ever learn no one likes f/f, she’s selfish to even ask for more of what she wants to read” thread. My initial comment was glib and obviously ill-advised to have spawned this. I’d pledge to restrain myself in the future, but somehow I don’t see myself living up to that kind of vow.

I get that you wish people loved it as much as you apparently do, but the facts are that it doesn't seem that's the case.

There are people who love it as much as I do. Not as many as love m/m romance, granted, but they are out there. But after being told time and again that “straight women do NOT enjoy f/f” [caps not mine] I imagine quite a few of them are reluctant to admit it. And since there is an ample supply of male-produced “lesbian porn” *shudder* already out there, maybe they can get their fix on that (I hate the stuff, but, hey, any port in a storm, as they say). I’ve had email discussions and forum conversations with enough of them to know they’re out there.

Will I shut up about f/f? Um, will the Erotica Cover Watch people give up their hopeless cause? I mean, the dearth of solo mantitty on the covers of het erotica is a marketing decision intended to be as inclusive as possible to the tastes of a het erotica readership: a lone female form is attractive to straight and gay women, and to straight men, and a m/f couple will appeal even to gay men, but a lone, sexualized male form will actively turn off a straight man. If those straight men are a large enough percentage of the target readership, those covers are going to stay as they are. Unless the BICEPS crew manages to convince straight guys to get turned on looking at other guys, that is. That doesn’t mean it’s fair, or that the ECW people should shut up and go away, does it?

Back to the topic at hand and please, please, please try to listen: I enjoy reading m/m. I enjoy reading (and writing) pretty much any romantic configuration, if it’s well written.

I think m/m romance in the regular romance section of stores is a wonderful idea. I think anything that furthers tolerance is a good thing. But I don’t only feel that way about m/m.

All these things chip away at the stereotypes and allow the notion of love, whatever the gender, conquering all. I like it and I think it is progress :)

Kate, I think I love you.

M/M relationships abound in erotic romance, often as sub plots or part of a M/M/F relationship-but it’s a start, and readers in my experience love it. And look at what Suzanne Brockmann did-took a gay character all the way through her best-selling series until he got is own HEA with another man.
When I asked my editor at Kensington Aphrodisia if it was okay for the two main male characters to get it on before the heroine even appeared, he was fine with that. She doesn’t appear until chapter 3 :)

All these things chip away at the stereotypes and allow the notion of love, whatever the gender, conquering all. I like it and I think it is progress :)

No offense taken :) It means I don’t feel I fit either gender really. I’m somewhere in a gray area where neither male nor female feels right to me. I present as a female, I am biologically a female but in my head and heart I don’t recognize myself as a woman, nor do I feel I’m a male in a female body. Sort of an undefined somewhere in between, with characteristics and traits of both genders a natural part of who I am. I’m pretty sure that’s closely tied to my asexual nature, as well.

My main point in bringing it up is that what a person enjoys writing has little to no correlation to their gender or sexual preference (in my case a lack thereof on both notes.)

(I don’t mean to offend, so I’m sorry if that’s a bad question to ask. I’ve genuinely never heard it.)

I get that you wish there were more, I get that you wish people loved it as much as you apparently do, but the facts are that it doesn’t seem that’s the case. Which pretty much means you can shout to your heart’s content and all it’ll get you is a sore throat. Supply and demand, hon, and your genre of choice has neither. That’s no one’s fault so how about you stop blaming everyone and their brother for it?

How are people supposed to publish and review and love something that you say yourself is barely written, and even less written well?

Also? Your not so subtle jab at bi and lesbian m/m authors was just catty and bitter. You’re not a better lesbian, if in fact you are a lesbian, just because you write femmeslash. I’m an asexual, aromantic, genderqueer female m/m author. Sexual orientation, or lack thereof, has absolutely nothing to do with what one enjoys writing.

Perhaps you could point out where on our website it says that?

This is my mistaken recollection, clearly – I thought I was told that around the time that you guys decided you would only take romance. I very distinctly remember being told that Samhain wouldn’t take f/f at this time, but where and by who, I don’t know, and obviously I’m getting it mixed up, and that mistaken memory is reinforced by the fact I never see any f/f coming through.

Once *again* I’ve managed to offend you, oh great editor. I’d apologise but I’m sure it makes no difference.

One you only reviewed because it was trans.

Uh, no. It was recced by a friend, I read and enjoyed and recommended. That tends to be how it works. If f/f fic is rare, do you have any idea how little trans fic I’ve ever even heard of? I reviewed it because I enjoyed it, and it fit in the remit of the site. I didn’t go, oh, I really must review some trans stories.

I wasn't aware there was anything stopping you guys from actually buying a book to review. I was under the impression that it was more of a “community service” to borrow Angie's term.

Only money and interest. It’s an unpaid job, Kirsten – Torquere’s a business. I run and manage that site on my own, including development, and pay the costs of the site – hosting and registration – entirely out of my own pocket. At the moment, with my husband out of work, that pocket is very empty. I rarely buy books I know I’ll enjoy – why should I lay money out for books I have no interest in, and have no knowledge of what is good? If you want to shove some books out way for review, you go ahead. I can tell you that your attitude of entitlement doesn’t inspire me to look for f/f.

If you want f/f reviews at UP, write them yourself. That’s what the site is for.

I do think that, as evidenced by the burgeoning success of m/m romance, being quiet and waiting for someone to read my mind and publish what I want is probably not going to work.

Neither is attacking the few outlets willing and ready to give your preference a voice. Torquere started their own press, for good or ill. If you believe in f/f that strongly, maybe that’s what you’ll have to do. M/m grew out of fanfiction. Its success owes nothing to fans clamouring or not, but to ex-fandom writers turning to original works, and others who have been quietly writing this stuff for years, suddenly being given a publishing outlet. In other words, there was both demand and supply. You’re describing a situation where the demand is small at best, and the supply is almost non-existant. Raging about the unfairness of one review site, or at one press deciding to take a business risk, won’t change that.

You need to create momentum, and I don’t believe your posts on DA are likely to create that because all it sounds like ‘Kirsten want, why Kirsten no get?’. No business can make a success out of what Kirsten want.

Come up with a thousand Kirstens, and fifty talented writers like K A Mitchell, and then you’re cooking with charcoal.

Speaking strictly as a straight woman who loves to read f/f, f/fm and actively seeks it out where ever I can find it.

Pairing two women can be romantic and sexy and fun, but as a woman, I already know and understand how women work and, while reading about them falling love can be sweet at times, the m/m relationships generally intrigue me more, because men are more of a mystery to me. They always seem so skittish about emotion and getting too close and being too vulnerable. So reading an exploration of their feelings in fiction is more of a draw to me than reading similar stories about two women.

That’s just me, though. I’m sure other readers have their particular reasons for preferring m/m.

Kirsten, if you’re not getting what you want in fiction, write it, yourself. That’s what fanficcers do. =)

You say you’re writing an m/m/f. Well, why not write an f/f/m, instead?

I do think this isn’t a question of f/f erotica, or f/f fiction, but one of f/f and f/f/m romance. Straight guys in general might enjoy f/f, but aren’t looking for romance (or any talkie bits, really, lol). And lesbian readers might enjoy f/f romance, but there is virtually nothing out there aimed at the straight or bi (or bi-curious) woman reader who is intrigued by f/f sexuality, but isn’t ready to pitch the guy out the window, yet (my ex-husband notwithstanding). Maybe all they’ve managed to find is that hideous, porny straight guy fantasy (boobs, butt and bleach blonde, cut the chit-chat and commence writhing).

(the stereotypical notion that people are more accepting of same-sex sex in the opposite sex),

All I’m gonna say here is that men and women are wired differently, and what seems stereotypical (that straight guys do not tolerate m/m well, for example) may be supported by scientific research, and what seems true (that women like two hot guys for the same reasons that men like two hot chicks), is maybe not as accurate as people think.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030613075252.htm

I do think that, as evidenced by the burgeoning success of m/m romance, being quiet and waiting for someone to read my mind and publish what I want is probably not going to work.

Depending, of course, on how these readers relate to the HEA (is it about being able to identify with the characters, and would the m/m difference ironically engender more identification than the f/f HEA?), how comfortable they are with the sexual differences (the stereotypical notion that people are more accepting of same-sex sex in the opposite sex), and whether it’s a case of m/m taking hold first and opening the door for wider interest in f/f.

The fact is, m/m has had the same hard road f/f is having right now. Somebody had to break the glass freaking ceiling so how about you be grateful that the door's cracking and stop whining that you'll only be happy when you can go too

Because we all know they only started publishing m/m when those clamoring for it shut up and went away…

M/m got its impetus from slash fanfiction writers and readers. F/f fanfic does exist but it's always been a minority interest in fandom. Without that kind of engine, or a major advertising drive from a major publisher, I can't see it reaching the same levels of popularity any time soon.

Possibly because there’s always been plenty of “f/f” *shudder* content produced for male readers/viewers, and that’s supposed to be good enough for us women, too. And I will concede that maybe women are so sick of bottle blondes with implants and three-inch swords growing out of their finger-tips moaning to compete with dying alley-cats and prodding delicately at each other while trying to avoid injury, that maybe the majority of the female readership isn’t ready to accept that there are other forms of f/f and OMG! f/f/m that aren’t like that revolting male-written one you mentioned.

I’m aware of those reviews at UP. I found them because I wanted recs for bi and lesbian romance and I figured I could trust you to know what good writing is. You have over 200 reviews for m/m fiction, and only those three for f/f. One you only reviewed because it was trans. Another was in an anthology that contained a variety of stories. I wasn’t aware there was anything stopping you guys from actually buying a book to review. I was under the impression that it was more of a “community service” to borrow Angie’s term.

I would guess that f/f sells better in stores because it’s more well-tolerated in society (in that women are permitted many more avenues of emotional and physical intimacy with one another than men are), that there isn’t the stigma attached to it that there is attached to m/m–for both male and female readers. I don’t think this reflects so much on the popularity of m/m versus the unpopularity of f/f–I think it mostly means that m/m is still largely in the closet, and any move by a publisher to get it out of there is a good thing.

I would love to buy more books from publishers like Black Lace, but I’m not made of money. The availability of f/f in print does NOTHING for someone who lives 150 miles through unpopulated country from the nearest bookstore (which may or may not have a GLBT section). If I buy from Amazon, shipping to my area costs more than the book does. I rely on ebooks. And I don’t want to pay trade paperback prices for them, either. When Black Lace, Cleis and others start putting their titles out in ebook, then I will cheer.

As to the assumption that I berudge the success of m/m–were those early advocates of m/m guilty of begrudging het? My initial comment that sparked this whole thing was an off-the-cuff response to Jessica’s comment about “gay romance” and m/m, and the disparity I see there–the same disparity many saw and still see between m/m and het and the definition of “romance”. And I think I’ve stated there’s nothing wrong with m/m, nor do I resent its success. I think progress is good, whoever it benefits. But I do resent being told I don’t exist, or that my dollars don’t matter, or that publishers only publish the books I love as some sort of charity.

We won't? Someone forgot to tell us that! Perhaps you could point out where on our website it says that?

Maybe Ann made the same assumption about SP that I made about her site–that the fact there isn’t really any on offer reflected the company’s preferences. It’s nice to hear the assumption refuted on both counts!

And as I am now about to drive that 150 miles through unpopulated forest to do some Christmas shopping, I won’t be around to respond to those who take further umbrage with this comment. But feel free to be annoyed while I’m gone. :D

Samhain won't take f/f at all, so I think they at least should remove the ‘L'. I suspect GLBT is used as shorthand in a genre which struggles to find a label everyone understands, without too much thought going into the actual meaning.

We won’t? Someone forgot to tell us that! Perhaps you could point out where on our website it says that?

Really? I could have sworn I heard from one of the higher-ups (albeit, some time ago) that the reason they hadn't published any was due to a lack of quality subs. It left me with the impression that the first f/f they did publish would probably have to be spectacular, but that they weren't totally closed to the notion. And they do publish f/f/m (and not just the kind where the second “f” wanders off into obscurity and leaves the f/m to their het HEA, which is more than I can say for some).

We see almost no f/f subs. I believe one is in the process of being contracted, though.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. There are very few things in romance that we say “no” to, and much of that depends on how it works in the story.

Although I've heard that f/f sells better in bookstores, while it's m/m which dominates the e-book market. No clue why.

Maybe women are less inhibited about being seen with such books, and men prefer to obtain stuff under plain cover?

Perhaps couples tend to buy f/f stuff together, because the woman wants erotica and feels the man will get into it more if it’s two women?

Or maybe lesbians don’t buy ebooks as much–figuring they’re not going to find what they want–but instead look for Cleis Press or something at the bookstore?

Obviously that’s total conjecture, and I certainly don’t mean to imply in any way that lesbians don’t shop online or are Luddites or anything like that, any more than to imply women only read f/f to please their men. I just meant that m/m ebooks tend to be sold through het erotic romance ebook sites (with a few exceptions) and maybe they simply prefer to get their books in stores because they don’t look at het erotic romance sites, having tried them before and found them not appealing?

I have noticed, btw, that Virgin Books–by English/UK writers, for English/UK readers, published by an English/UK publisher–contain a LOT more f/f. I don’t think I’ve read a Black Lace book without at least one lesbian scene in it–usually more–in addition to spanking and a heavier emphasis on oral-anal play (yes, that my attempt at a polite euphemism for rimjobs, which are pretty common in Virgin books.) The only Virgin book I read without any f/f was for their Cheek line, which was for books set in the US by US authors, and which has been cancelled (if memory serves).

So that might be something to think about as well, both for those wondering why more f/f erotica sells in stores and for those looking for more f/f. I’m not crazy in general about the Black Lace books (for a number of reasons), but there are a few very good writers in their stable; Portia da Costa, of course, Olivia Knight and Kristina Lloyd (although her books are generally not HEAs, just to warn you).

f/f sells better in bookstores

In any Borders here which have a gay section at all, the f/f section is actually (slightly) larger. Maybe women are less inhibited about being seen with such books, and men prefer to obtain stuff under plain cover?

M/m got its impetus from slash fanfiction writers and readers. F/f fanfic does exist but it’s always been a minority interest in fandom. Without that kind of engine, or a major advertising drive from a major publisher, I can’t see it reaching the same levels of popularity any time soon.

Although I’ve heard that f/f sells better in bookstores, while it’s m/m which dominates the e-book market. No clue why.

Angie