I’m breezing through Susan Wiggs’ Just Breathe, and while I haven’t decided to skip last 100 pages and read the end, the passive heroine has turned a promising premise and deep POV into a unremarkable “C” read. While this is my firstand last Wiggs, the wide breadth of new women’s fic is likely to supply something else I’ll love. I haven’t found this to be as true of romance. It’s pretty much been SSDD and I’ve been reading more non-fiction, mystery, sci fi, and even children’s books in the lurch.

I think we web folk can be a little insular at times. I see a lot of the same folks posting at many other sites and even counting lurkers, we must just a microscopic part women’s fic & romance buyers beacuse a large number of “someone elses” is creating the demand for and sustaining the sales of books many of us aren’t interested in. Even I’ve contributed in ’08 because I’ve purchased over two dozen books I’ve read 7 or fewer pages of because that was enough pages to know I didn’t care enough to skip to the end.

I’m a tad disappointed since nearly all were high graded DA and SB picks, but my burnout has apparently turned in to disinterest these days.

Why is that, do you think?

It’s probably for the same reason, whatever that is, that mothers complain about their kids not settling down and having grandchildren – completely ignoring the fact that it’s not that simple.

I think it is mostly about the hero for me. I’ve caught myself being impatient with heroines who are wary or take their time and have to remind myself to be fair. It may be because nowadays we get a lot of the hero’s point of view so the reader knows more than the heroine and unconsciously feels superior to her because of that knowledge and may even feel more partiality towards the hero.

But there's another phenomenon I've noticed personally that I think is very telling, and that's how many readers are reluctant to let the heroine grow, or have issues, or take her time deciding whether to go forward with the relationship. Maybe that's because I write such fabulous guys readers can't understand the heroines' reluctance ;-), but when one talks about the pretty pink bubble that seems to encompass Romanceland, it's interesting that heroines with genuine reasons for resisting commitment draw such fire.

Why is that, do you think? Personally, I seek out strong, interesting heroines and love when they have issues and take time to commit and grow. I think I may care more about heroines than the average reader (I guess as identified by sales/criticism). But, I have heard lots of folks say that a romance is all about the hero. Do others agree?

Can I recommend Tami Parrington’s Married To A Rock Star? It’s self-published (I know, I know) but it is very readable. Available on Amazon as well as Lulu (download version).

But m/m contemporaries have it all, and I wouldn’t give them up for anything. In fact, I avoid m/m paranormals b/c I just don’t need the extra paranormal boost like I do in het romances.

One thing I like about writing m/m is that it's still very much a frontier. The most basic rules are there -’ we still need an HEA/HFN or our readers will scream too -’ but so much of the details just haven't been legislated yet.

A big ‘me too’ on that. Want older lovers? Easy. Want people who are sexually experienced, and not necessarily monogamous before the relationship firms up? No one blinks. Physical infirmities, deformities? Readers don’t mind. So long as the lovers aren’t dead and are within spitting distance of a HEA (and you don’t bring an icky woman into the mix), you can do so much in m/m – and I think this is why I just can’t bring myself to write het (along with the fact that ‘dripping pussies’ and fingers being jammed where the sun doesn’t shine doesn’t strike me as very erotic, even if it’s de riguer in het romance these days.) M/m lets you break right out of the expected gender roles without creating a ludicrously feisty heroine reminding you every three seconds how she’s not the little woman.

Even if it never becomes mainstream (and I kinda hope it doesn’t) I can’t see myself writing anything else for a very long time. It’s too much fun.

I don't mind younger heroines, as long as they aren't TSTL; I like watching young people make important life choices, IRL and on the page. But more and more I find myself looking for romance heroines who are a bit further on in their lives, with more experience to apply to their situations.

Exactly! You hit the nail on the head.

Nora’s series about the Quinn Brothers is a good example of what I’m talking about. Except for that ghost showing up now and then, that was for the most part straight contemporary. While the books were male-centric (which I prefer), the women in those books were 30-ish (if I remember right). But they were dealing with their lives and we, the reader, got to watch and get inside their heads and their feelings. There may have been some frou-frou in there but it was background noise to me, I didn’t notice it. I loved this series, re-read it a few times.

The most memorable book I’ve read about an older woman was a book by Constance O’day-Flannery called Once In A Lifetime. There was a ghost in this one too but, other than his few appearances, it was straight contemporary. It was about a middle-aged woman whose husband decided he wanted a newer model. Loved this book! You got to watch her struggle and then grow.

There seems to be an attitude in the genre today that there is a little something for everyone. We got books that feature plus-size women, multicultural, erotica … I really think there is room for us older gals too.

Well now I’m going to have to go out and buy Nora’s In the Garden trilogy and check out Sherry Thomas. You’ve perked my interest.

but then romance readers say that's not what they want, because they don't want sexually experience heroines (especially those who sleep with someone other than the hero during the course of the story) or they don't want to read about someone in a dead-end job, and they definitely do want that guaranteed HEA.

…

I know I want at least a HFN ending in a romance, or some kind of upbeat ending. But I like sexually experienced heroines.

…

You can have women in all sorts of situations (and I have – like my plump, homeless, screwed-over, single mother waitress in one of my recent SSEs), but God forbid they actually bitch about their sorry lot. Put ‘em through hell, sure, but make sure they're still upbeat about it. ;-)

…

And I've written stories like this- real, flawed people, without being over the top, real, flawed situations, where the happy outcome isn't a guarantee, at least, not until near the end, and time and again, I've been rejected by editors with a variety of “Great writing, but…” And the but usually includes something like one of the leads sleeping with someone who's not the hero/heroine or some other “taboo” being stomped all over.

…

Honestly, the whole “readers don't like XXX” sounds incredibly patronizing. But then again…I guess this is why my romance reading has fallen off to an alarming degree. The more I experience, the more it appears the mainstream romance genre is severely out of sync with what I desire out of a romance novel. :/

Another trend that’s been going on for ages. And of course, we get this feedback loop going — the writers and editors are trying to figure out What The Readers Want, and every time the work out a new taboo, something which appears to bring a lot of negative mail or board comments or falling sales, another character trait or plot device or whatever is added to the “Can’t Do That In A Romance” list. And every time something is struck off the list, some number of readers who liked that feature wander away.

Do this for a few decades and eventually, yeah, you’re going to have quite a few people who used to read romances but don’t anymore, and quite a few more people who are still hanging on but grousing that romance books aren’t as good as they where when those folks started reading them back whenever, and yet another crowd pointing out that this or that other genre has really wonderful romances which break Rule 12 or Rule 27 but are still excellent and the sky hasn’t fallen and why can’t we do this too? And the keepers of wisdom say it’s because The Readers won’t stand for it. And they won’t — the readers who are left are for the most part the ones who don’t like it when books break the current list of rules, updated, with appendices.

But every time a new rule is worked out, that cuts loose another fraction of the readership. The pool of readers becomes a bit smaller and more concentrated. Less variety is tolerated, but the current batch of readers for the most part really loves the current batch of rules. We’re defining ourselves smaller and smaller and smaller.

Of course, romance is still the best selling genre by an order of magnitude, right? So who cares? [wry smile]

One thing I like about writing m/m is that it’s still very much a frontier. The most basic rules are there — we still need an HEA/HFN or our readers will scream too — but so much of the details just haven’t been legislated yet. We can tramp through the underbrush and explore and try different things. Sure, occasionally one ends up with a few arrows in ones back, but that’s just part of being an pioneer. :) I’ll deal with it, in exchange for the freedom to break a few of those long-established rules if I want to, or if my story needs it.

Angie

While a relationship with a man is still desirable, you couldn't drag me to the alter again if you put a gun to my head.

Yay, Dee!! Me too.

I don’t mind younger heroines, as long as they aren’t TSTL; I like watching young people make important life choices, IRL and on the page. But more and more I find myself looking for romance heroines who are a bit further on in their lives, with more experience to apply to their situations. I think that’s why Sherry Thomas’ books both sucked me in; the romances start when the characters are young, but that part is told in flashbacks.

One reason I loved Nora Roberts’ In the Garden trilogy was that she covered such a great age range in the three central romances. I am also very appreciative of authors who feature older secondary characters getting HEAs along with the happy central couple.

Of course writing more complex, mature characters (and allowing them time to hesitate and take time resolving their conflicts) makes for longer books. But who am I kidding — romances are my second love, after epic fantasy, so I will never be really happy with category-length stories anyway!

What will pull me in is a subject I’m interested in. Such as, for awhile I was on a kick of trying to find any romance set in Vietnam during the war, during the Vietnam era or about Vietnam Vets. There were some VERY good books out there, though very few. I also got on a kick where I read every romance I could find about rock and/or country musicians, very few of those too.

I guess the main problem for me is 90% of the contemporaries I’ve read go on and on about the fashions the women are wearing, their makeup … all the girly-girl frou-frou stuff. And then, to top it off, they’re pregnant at the end. This is tough for me to get interested in. I’m an older single, professional woman.

I’m in my late 40s, hell I’m post-menopausal! I’ve gotten rid of 3 husbands (yes they are still alive, just not living in my house). While a relationship with a man is still desirable, you couldn’t drag me to the alter again if you put a gun to my head. High fashion and makeup just don’t carry the significance to me that it did in my 20s and 30s.

I would dearly love to see more romance novels that feature women in my age range. I’m really surprised there aren’t considering most of my favorite authors are my age and older. I’ve read a few but, they are few and far between.

On another point, I do think there are a decent number of romance authors in their 30's, but very few in their 20's who are published. I'm not sure what the average age of the published romance author is these days.

I’m in my twenties, but I prefer my heroines to be in their thirties. I started writing my first romantic suspense in my teens and put my heroine in her early thirties. From my early romance reading years, I was exposed to way too many twenty-something heroines whose actions, thoughts and, frankly, lack of common sense, made me cringe. Of course, there are plenty of thirty-something heroines out there who are just as TSTL, but not many writers like to cross the thirty line because the misguided belief is the best years of your life are between 19 and 30. (Or at least that’s the impression I get from reading so many romance guidelines.) And God help you if you aren’t married and pregnant by the big three-oh.

However…if you listen long enough, and hard enough, and pay attention to your royalty statements :), you begin to see certain patterns, among those readers who gravitate to particular types of stories. If, say, over the years you keep hearing from readers who say they favor A, but during that same timeframe only a handful who say they favor B, C, or D, then by extrapolation one comes to the conclusion that MOST readers prefer A.

Take first person, for instance. It’s rare to hear a reader say they like it for romance. Many won’t read it at all, under any circumstances. That’s a logical consensus which in turn influences most romance authors to NOT write romances in first person. And many romance readers are so entrenched in their own definitions of HEA that they often don’t recognize it when it appears in a slightly altered form, such as in chick lit. If you look at what’s selling best right now, across the board, it’s pretty clear that fantasy (as in, not grounded in the world as we know it) rules. Even at H/S, those Greek tycoons and their virgin mistresses sell like mad. Realistic? Not a bit of it. Popular? Heck, yeah.

But there’s another phenomenon I’ve noticed personally that I think is very telling, and that’s how many readers are reluctant to let the heroine grow, or have issues, or take her time deciding whether to go forward with the relationship. Maybe that’s because I write such fabulous guys readers can’t understand the heroines’ reluctance ;-), but when one talks about the pretty pink bubble that seems to encompass Romanceland, it’s interesting that heroines with genuine reasons for resisting commitment draw such fire.

Obviously, in real life women have just as many issues about love and marriage as men do — especially if they’ve been through the mill a time or six. And certainly not all of my readers have problems with giving my gals a chance to find their footing and work through their fears. But clearly too MUCH conflict makes a lot of readers uneasy — as though they fear I’m somehow going to cheat them out of the payoff — which is why I suppose so many books, and characters, feel “safe” practically from the outset.

Because if most readers turn to the genre to feel safe themselves, cocooned from the ordinary world, how much “reality” can we impose on our characters before we lose that core readership that keeps the ship afloat?

And I hope this makes sense — it’s very late and I’ve been wrestling with a deadline book all day. But I’m enjoying the discussion, diminished braincell capacity notwithstanding.

But we do have to be careful not to let the tone dip into dreary. Romance readers aren't big fans.

The problem is -’ and I'm speaking as someone who's been in the trenches for more than a dozen years now -’ a lot of what some of you seem to want in your contemps is being or has been done in chick lit and women's fiction

I do read chick-lit for that purpose. Honestly, the whole “readers don’t like XXX” sounds incredibly patronizing. But then again…I guess this is why my romance reading has fallen off to an alarming degree. The more I experience, the more it appears the mainstream romance genre is severely out of sync with what I desire out of a romance novel. :/

Me, too. And emotional truth is the perfect way to describe it. Which is why I write the stories I write, trying to find that balance between believable/relatable and modern day fairy tale, ‘cuz that's what I hear in my head. ;-)

And Karen does it beautifully. (I put the purple pimp hat on for Karen all the time.)

And I’ve written stories like this– real, flawed people, without being over the top, real, flawed situations, where the happy outcome isn’t a guarantee, at least, not until near the end, and time and again, I’ve been rejected by editors with a variety of “Great writing, but…” And the but usually includes something like one of the leads sleeping with someone who’s not the hero/heroine or some other “taboo” being stomped all over. I’m not boo-hooing the situation, although I will admit to it being frustrating. All I can do is continue to write the stories I love writing and hope that I find that one editor who’ll love it and when/if that happens, that, to paraphrase Field of Dreams, if I write it, they will come.

When you say romance readers say they want that, are you referring to feedback you've gotten from readers in emails, to comments on message boards, or to publisher market research?

All of the above, plus reviews (reader and otherwise). Industry “chatter” in other words, gleaned from many sources.

I often say that I am looking for escape in my reading, and I often say I am looking for realism too. I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive. I think it's possible to find both in the same book.

Me, too. And emotional truth is the perfect way to describe it. Which is why I write the stories I write, trying to find that balance between believable/relatable and modern day fairy tale, ‘cuz that’s what I hear in my head. ;-)

The problem is -’ and I'm speaking as someone who's been in the trenches for more than a dozen years now -’ a lot of what some of you seem to want in your contemps is being or has been done in chick lit and women's fiction…but then romance readers say that's not what they want, because they don't want sexually experience heroines (especially those who sleep with someone other than the hero during the course of the story) or they don't want to read about someone in a dead-end job, and they definitely do want that guaranteed HEA.

When you say romance readers say they want that, are you referring to feedback you’ve gotten from readers in emails, to comments on message boards, or to publisher market research?

I know I want at least a HFN ending in a romance, or some kind of upbeat ending. But I like sexually experienced heroines. I remember when I first read Kathleen Gilles Seidel’s book Again, one of the things that charmed me was that the heroine was romantically involved with and living with another man when she met the hero. And as far as dead-end jobs, I remember being struck (in a positive way) by the heroine’s first job in Janice Kay Johnson’s With Child — she was a barista in a Seattle coffeeshop. I like to think that other than the upbeat ending, everything else depends on the execution, and any scenario can be written well. But maybe that’s naive of me.

Add to that the number of readers who AREN'T looking for “real” -’ they want escape, no matter when the book's set, and the contemp writer is faced with some real tough challenges.

I often say that I am looking for escape in my reading, and I often say I am looking for realism too. I don’t believe the two are mutually exclusive. I think it’s possible to find both in the same book. Take Megan Hart’s gut-wrenching books, Dirty and Broken. The emotions and situations the characters faced were portrayed with unflinching realism at times, but the characters still had a sexy glamour to them. Speaking only for myself, I think when I read romance I hope to find that blend of reality and fantasy in one book. I don’t want the world of the book to be as mundane as the real world, I don’t want it to be depressing or bleak, but I want the characters to feel authentic and their relationships as well as the emotional responses they have to their situations to hit on some kind of emotional truth, for lack of a better term.

When I complain about contemporary romance it is because it exists in this bubble where everything is glowing and pink and perfect. For example, I can look at the secret baby plot device with horror when I see the drama and frustration of a woman's unexpected pregnancy and the relationship between the parents if the baby was unexpected. That plot's popularity astounds me and actually angers me with how it trivializes the situation in real life and turns it into fantasy fodder for women who mayn't ever be involved in such a gut-wrenching situation.

I’ve written a few secret baby stories, although only once was the baby in question the heroine’s, so while the MOTHER of the child may have kept the child from the father, the heroine did not. And yes, it IS gut-wrenching, and I’ve never put anyone in a bubble while they worked it out. I’ve also written several surprise pregnancy stories, and again, haven’t soft-pedaled the emotional aspects of that at all. But you gotta remember…these are romances, not literary fiction; we have X number of words to resolve the issue(s); and the people involved have to be at least appealing enough to earn the right to be called heroes and heroines, which already gives them a leg up for getting their HEA. That doesn’t mean the characters have to be perfect, but they do have to be likable. From the outset the reader’s going to (or should) root for them to get together. You can have women in all sorts of situations (and I have – like my plump, homeless, screwed-over, single mother waitress in one of my recent SSEs), but God forbid they actually bitch about their sorry lot. Put ‘em through hell, sure, but make sure they’re still upbeat about it. ;-)

I'm in my mid-20s and didn't feel like a real adult until I was 22/23-where is my story in a contemporary romance? Where is the story of a young woman who may be stuck working a restaurant? Or is still living with her parents? Or is putting herself through college? Or is wealthy but dissatisfied? Or is engaged to a man she is unsure of? And tons of other real life stories of young men and women who are the sort of people you can pass by in a grocery store!!

I think I’ve written gals in just about every scenario you just described. There is nothing even remotely perfect about their lives, if by that you mean they never have to worry about money or bad hair days or whether they’ll ever finally finish their education. Geez, I’m writing one now who, because of a family situation that’s kept her out of circulation for several years, still has no clue what her purpose is in life at 29(one reason why she resists her attraction to his hero, because is she really ready for that kind of commitment?). But we do have to be careful not to let the tone dip into dreary. Romance readers aren’t big fans.

The problem is — and I’m speaking as someone who’s been in the trenches for more than a dozen years now — a lot of what some of you seem to want in your contemps is being or has been done in chick lit and women’s fiction…but then romance readers say that’s not what they want, because they don’t want sexually experience heroines (especially those who sleep with someone other than the hero during the course of the story) or they don’t want to read about someone in a dead-end job, and they definitely do want that guaranteed HEA. While of course there are real-life HEAs, they rarely happen the way they do in fiction, because fiction only approximates real life, it doesn’t mirror it. Most courtships are pretty boring, actually, a series of steps that eventually lead to commitment. Or not. But in a Romance with a capital R, no matter what the obstacles keeping the couple emotionally or physically apart, by the end of the book All is Well. That means the writer has to plot her story in such a way that the problems DO have solutions…otherwise the reader won’t believe the happy ending. And if the heroine is unhappy with her lot at the beginning of the book, she has to see some sort of progress on all fronts by the end, or the reader’s not gonna be happy.

So while that doesn’t mean you can’t put the characters through the ringer, or write about “ordinary” people — which I’ve been doing over the course of twelve years and 30 books — the very structure of the genre is at odds with what we think of as real life. Add to that the number of readers who AREN’T looking for “real” — they want escape, no matter when the book’s set, and the contemp writer is faced with some real tough challenges.