I can’t not finish books…so I will continue with this, but I find it hard to imagine anything will redeem it for me, especially given your comments above about how she’s worse in the second half of the book.

What bothered me about the book was its lack of plot, its lack of authenticity, its lack of historical detail–I had been pointed to this book as being fabulously researched, etc., etc., etc. and I was expecting something more than just a poorly-plotted romance.

I know, I should have known better, but the story was such a disappointment, just a (very) thin excuse to bring the two lovers together, a story without substance, and I’m left still looking for a more substantive love story set in this time period.

Most mystifying to me was the way the book started off as being about the brave French resistance/English agents of WWII and once the characters were in London became John Le Carre.

And the virginity thing was just silly.

As for Isobel and Killian, the part of the book that really bugged me was the last section where Killian is basically dragging Isobel across the desert and she has no idea where they are going. At that point he seemed much more competent and in control. Up to that point, though, and in the final pages, I felt that there was more of a give and take of power (in their past relationship and their reunion).

I think I started to be irritated earlier on, when Isobel did not see through Killian’s disguise and then when she allowed him to drug her (I’m referring to the drugging in the present day storyline rather than in the past).

Also, I think I got more of a sense of emotional equity between them than in some of the other books in the series -’ they both seemed to me damaged in similar ways.

That’s true — there was more emotional equality and that was probably one of the things that made the book a B- for me. I think I could have loved it had Isobel not kept getting outsmarted.

One of the reasons I stopped reading the Reno/Jilly book is that I started rolling my eyes very early at the way I felt that Jilly's cluelessness brought out Reno's boorishness.

I didn’t love that, either (Fire and Ice was a B- for me, too), but I liked the way Stuart made me feel Reno’s own youth and fear of commitment, as well as his protectiveness of Jilly.

And I think that one of the reasons I liked Black Ice so much was that I never felt that Chloe's ignorance came across as stupidity (at least not to me). So I accepted the differences in experience and emotional connectedness in a way I haven't been able to since in the series, except for part of Isobel and Killian's story.

I also thought that Black Ice was the best book in the Ice series. I read the rest of the series hoping for another book that good, but as is often the case with series for me, the first was the best and the most potent.

What I'm tired of, I guess, is heroines who feel to me that they've been crafted according to a more sentimental notion of femininity or womanhood -’ who won't kill because it goes against their biological role as mothers, for example. Or heroines who refuse to be selfish because that would be unfeminine. It's the way certain aspects of the character are connected to gender that bothers me, much more than the characteristics themselves. So I don't mind a kind heroine or a virgin heroine, as long as those characteristics aren't mere extensions of her “womanhood.”

I don’t categorically mind virgin heroines either. I think the heroines I like best are the ones who feel whole and multidimensional to me, whose behavior and choices make sense to me and seems in keeping with the rest of their personalities and backgrounds.

I love, for example, Leda in Kinsale’s The Shadow and the Star, and I feel that her virginity is integral to that story because of the fierce way she clings to her reputation and her sense of propriety as a result of being illegitimate. That she is willing to sacrifice that reputation for Samuel in the way that she does is very telling about just how much she feels for him, and it makes for some incredibly powerful scenes.

I think right now that fantasy and paranormals is where we're seeing the stronger heroines, although I think that sometimes we simply get the “kickass” heroine, and not a more subtle and layered alpha heroine.

Yeah, that is true. To be honest, I don’t know if a kickass heroine that is not subtle or layered interests me much more than a more traditional heroine. Probably a little bit, but what I really long for are those layered characters.

But I like to think that this trend toward stronger heroines in fantasy and paranormals is seeping into other subgenres as well as a result of the paranormals’ popularity, and that hopefully we’ll be seeing heroines grow stronger across the board.

How about Lilith from Demon Angel? Whether or not she would want to save someone is another matter altogether.

For me, she is another one that’s right on the borderline.

And OT: Kinsale. *sigh* I just read Flowers from the Storm. What a great storyteller she is. And For My Lady's Heart is one of my favourite romances of all time.

She has probably written more romances that I absolutely loved than any other author. I hope The Lucky One will be published eventually.

How about Lilith from Demon Angel? Whether or not she would want to save someone is another matter altogether.

Oh, yeah, definitely Lilith!

Actually, if you read further in Fire and Ice, you will see that Jilly shoots someone too. It was one of the strongest moments in that book, for me.

I may get there someday.

As for Isobel and Killian, the part of the book that really bugged me was the last section where Killian is basically dragging Isobel across the desert and she has no idea where they are going. At that point he seemed much more competent and in control. Up to that point, though, and in the final pages, I felt that there was more of a give and take of power (in their past relationship and their reunion). Also, I think I got more of a sense of emotional equity between them than in some of the other books in the series — they both seemed to me damaged in similar ways. One of the reasons I stopped reading the Reno/Jilly book is that I started rolling my eyes very early at the way I felt that Jilly’s cluelessness brought out Reno’s boorishness. And I think that one of the reasons I liked Black Ice so much was that I never felt that Chloe’s ignorance came across as stupidity (at least not to me). So I accepted the differences in experience and emotional connectedness in a way I haven’t been able to since in the series, except for part of Isobel and Killian’s story.

When I say alpha I don't mean conscienceless, or “kick ass” either. But I would love to see some heroines with a streak of ruthlessness or ambition or calculation.

What I’m tired of, I guess, is heroines who feel to me that they’ve been crafted according to a more sentimental notion of femininity or womanhood — who won’t kill because it goes against their biological role as mothers, for example. Or heroines who refuse to be selfish because that would be unfeminine. It’s the way certain aspects of the character are connected to gender that bothers me, much more than the characteristics themselves. So I don’t mind a kind heroine or a virgin heroine, as long as those characteristics aren’t mere extensions of her “womanhood.”

And Melanthe is definitely a class A alpha heroine. I also love Zenia from Dream Hunter, Maddy from Flowers from the Storm (and believe her to be an alpha), the Abe heroines, Nell from Crusie’s Fast Women, Francesca from Chase’s Your Scandalous Ways, Coco from Ivory’s Sleeping Beauty, etc. I think right now that fantasy and paranormals is where we’re seeing the stronger heroines, although I think that sometimes we simply get the “kickass” heroine, and not a more subtle and layered alpha heroine. Some of the Kresley Cole IAD books feature alpha heroines, though, IMO (Myst and Kaderin, especially).

And OT: Kinsale. *sigh* I just read Flowers from the Storm. What a great storyteller she is. And For My Lady’s Heart is one of my favourite romances of all time.

There are echoes of Lessa (from Dragonflight) in both characters.

Yes, Rue and Maricara remind me of Lessa too, and that’s one of the highest compliments I can give.

You need to finish reading the book if you don't believe that Claire is capable of rescuing Jamie. (I know that you never will finish it, but I think that you probably would change your opinion if you did.)

Actually, when I misplaced my copy of Outlander, I had just reached the point where Claire was planning to rescue Jamie. I fully believed that she was capable of rescuing him, but that still didn’t make her an alpha in my eyes.

There are plenty of heroines who would be capable of rescuing the hero, should he need rescuing, that I would still not designate as alpha. For example the heroines of McNaught’s Something Wonderful and Sandra Schwab’s The Lily Brand rescue the heroes of those books, and while I was delighted by the flipping of the gender roles in those books, I did not see them as alpha heroines.

The term “alpha” denotes a certain toughness to me, and if I did not feel that Claire possessed it after reading 800 pages of Outlander, I don’t think the last hundred pages would have changed my mind. In any case, by the time my copy of Outlander turned up again, a long time had gone by, and I would have had to reread from the beginning to refresh my memory, and since the first 800 pages had been slow going the first time, I decided not to do so. I liked some things about the book, but I didn’t love it, and I really have to love 900-page books to stick with them through the end.

Juliet was more alpha than her hero, a fact which I think made some readers uncomfortable.

Yes, the hero of The Iron Rose (I have forgotten his name) was a beta hero, but that doesn’t automatically make Juliet an alpha in my mind. I think she was a borderline case, which is why I say that I’d have to reread to be certain.

I agree that Melanthe is alpha

Melanthe is probably the one I consider alpha-est, LOL.

Gigi is not such a clear cut case, but I won't argue with you about it. She is certainly no shrinking violet.

Nothing to argue about, since I agree she is more borderline.

Re. Cheryl Sawyer’s Siren:

I think that I have that book in a TBR pile. I will have to dig it out.

I will be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

I agree with you about Rue and Maricara.

IMO, they are both very definitely alpha (and are even called “alpha” in the text of the story.) There are echoes of Lessa (from Dragonflight) in both characters.

Claire kept getting rescued by Jamie -’ not my idea of alpha.

I know that I am wasting my breath since we have been around the block on this point before, but Claire is totally alpha, IMHO. You need to finish reading the book if you don’t believe that Claire is capable of rescuing Jamie. (I know that you never will finish it, but I think that you probably would change your opinion if you did.)

I liked Juliet in The Iron Rose but I would have to reread the book to see if I agree with your alpha designation.

Juliet was more alpha than her hero, a fact which I think made some readers uncomfortable. Her mother, Beau, was matched up with a very alpha hero, so that story is more of an alpha/alpha pairing.

I liked Linnea Sinclair's heroine in Games of Command very much, but I would describe her as gamma.

I will concede this point. I really like Linnea Sinclair’s books, but I confess that I am getting many of the storylines and characters scrambled in my head. Certainly her heroines tend more toward alpha and are more capable and self-reliant than the average romance heroine.

I only read the first In Death book, and that was long ago, so I'm not sure I have a good feel for Eve, but I can believe she's an alpha.

I definitely think so.

A Nora Roberts heroine I loved and felt was alpha is her heroine from Sweet Revenge. I already mentioned Melanthe from For My Lady's Heart. I think Gigi from Private Arrangements is an alpha.

I agree that Melanthe is alpha. Gigi is not such a clear cut case, but I won’t argue with you about it. She is certainly no shrinking violet.

The heroine of Cheryl Sawyer's Siren is an alpha, too. I had mixed feeling about the book for a variety of reasons but I really appreciated the heroine. If you liked The Iron Rose you might like Siren too, as it's also about pirates (and the heroine is a pirate).

I think that I have that book in a TBR pile. I will have to dig it out.

I didn't think the writing was good – I'm opening the book and here's a bit in the heroine's head: ‘Now Maman was dead in a stupid accident that should not have killed a dog.'

That line worked for me because even though it is a bit illogical to say that the accident should not have killed a dog, I saw that as a sign that Annique was not thinking so clearly due to her grief for her mother. I do agree that the writing wasn’t always subtle, but I did think it was often beautiful.

Hmmm. Bourne uses a lot of imagery, but it’s actually imagery that yanks me out of the story – pawlike ivy. I’m afraid I think she is a pretty unsubtle writer and I didn’t feel for one minute that Annique was authentically French. Or a spy. I had just as much difficulty in suspending my disbelief. I finished the book and it’s close to the Da Vinci code for me in terms of total bafflement as to why so many people rate it. It’s not as badly written as the DVC, but it’s not that well-written. Not compared to Tracy Grant or Eva Ibbotson or Jenny Crusie.

Yes, they are rarities. I actually can only think of a handful-Rue and Maricara from Shana Abe's Drakon series, Claire from Outlander, Beau Dante and her daughter Juliet from Marsha Canham's Across a Moonlit Sea and The Iron Rose, most of Linnea Sinclair's heroines and In Death's Eve Dallas. What are some others off the top of your head???

I agree with you about Rue and Maricara. Claire kept getting rescued by Jamie — not my idea of alpha. I liked Juliet in The Iron Rose but I would have to reread the book to see if I agree with your alpha designation. I liked Linnea Sinclair’s heroine in Games of Command very much, but I would describe her as gamma. I only read the first In Death book, and that was long ago, so I’m not sure I have a good feel for Eve, but I can believe she’s an alpha. A Nora Roberts heroine I loved and felt was alpha is her heroine from Sweet Revenge. I already mentioned Melanthe from For My Lady’s Heart. I think Gigi from Private Arrangements is an alpha. The heroine of Cheryl Sawyer’s Siren is an alpha, too. I had mixed feeling about the book for a variety of reasons but I really appreciated the heroine. If you liked The Iron Rose you might like Siren too, as it’s also about pirates (and the heroine is a pirate).

Actually, on further reflection, I think there were a lot more heroines who were close to alpha in the romances of the early eighties. I don’t really want to turn back the clock, as those books were often full of rapes and forced seductions, but there were a lot of strong-willed heroines in those days. For example, Christine Monson’s Rangoon comes to mind. Sometimes the battles of the wills in those early eighties books got shrill, and I can see why they don’t appeal to many of today’s readers, but there were some that I really enjoyed in their day, and I do wonder why we see fewer alpha heroines now.

What has been irking me lately about Romantic Suspense, in particular, is the way that moral ambiguity seems to be communicated primarily through ‘killing without conscience,' as opposed to the kind of example you provide from Dragonflight.

I know what you mean and it does bother me too. Setting aside the implications of romanticizing killing without conscience, I feel that conscience is a big part of most people’s makeup, and leaving it out makes for weak characterization.

That may be one of the reasons I didn't find Isobel Lambert completely objectionable (I felt that the Committee as a whole had lost its teeth by that point, and that Killian would have outsmarted Peter, too, until he knew the connection) but haven't been able to make it through Jilly's story (at least Isobel had actually shot someone, lol).

SPOILERS for Ice Storm and Fire and Ice
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Actually, if you read further in Fire and Ice, you will see that Jilly shoots someone too. It was one of the strongest moments in that book, for me.

I didn’t find Isobel completely objectionable either — I liked her a lot in the flashbacks to her youth — but I had a hard time understanding how she had run the Committee and prior to that, been its agent for years, given the way she was portrayed. I agree that the entire Committee lost its teeth by then, but that loss felt to me like a contrivance to allow Killian to have the upper hand over all of them. To me it looked like another case of a bunch of characters acting inconsistently. I still liked the book, though more for Reno, Mahmoud, Stuart’s tight writing, and the past flashbacks than for the current day romance.

So, yes, I'm all for more alpha heroines, but I don't want them to look like the current crop of so-called alpha heroes.

I agree with that. When I say alpha I don’t mean conscienceless, or “kick ass” either. But I would love to see some heroines with a streak of ruthlessness or ambition or calculation.

I'm mot sure, actually, my definition of an alpha heroine would match most readers, since I felt that Rue from Shana Abe's Smoke Thief was alpha, whereas many readers felt she was weaker than Kit.

FWIW, I thought Rue was an alpha too. And I thought Maricara from Abe’s Queen of Dragons was also an alpha heroine. My favorite example of an alpha heroine in the romance genre is Melanthe from Kinsale’s For My Lady’s Heart.

I've had that problem with other books as well. I'm afraid that when so many characters (especially if it's all of the “good guys” in the story) find the hero or heroine charming it's hard for me to accept it at face value. In real life even the most charming people aren't so universally loved -’ there is usually someone who is impervious to that charm. So when it happens in books (Especially if the charming character has very few personality flaws) I usually start feeling that there is some wish-fulfillment fantasy at work and that the charm is being oversold.

Yes, I do know what you mean and that is a valid point. As I recall, you had a similar objection to Jamie in Outlander (you unnatural creature! *g*)

But I would love to see more alpha heroines in romances, since off the top of my head I can think of very few.

Yes, they are rarities. I actually can only think of a handful–Rue and Maricara from Shana Abe’s Drakon series, Claire from Outlander, Beau Dante and her daughter Juliet from Marsha Canham’s Across a Moonlit Sea and The Iron Rose, most of Linnea Sinclair’s heroines and In Death’s Eve Dallas. What are some others off the top of your head???