I would suggest also remembering the tribes and their cultures that she mangles and destroys with the books she writes. Honestly, how can you say that your writing a series to “give a voice to the Indians” (something along that line was printed in the back of the book which is in the hands of the museum) then repersent a stereotyped version of their culuture.

I know this comment doesn’t fit the plagiarism motif, but thsi is just another thing to keep in mind when discussing the hideous writings of Cassie Edwards.

Bev(BB) for prez! *ahem* (and apologies for mangling your handle earlier *wince*)

Har, har. And thank you very much but no thanks. And no apologies necessary. ;)

Sorry for taking so long to reply but my allergic asthma seems to be kicking up at the end of the cold I’ve had for the last few weeks and I’ve been a little preoccupied overnight. So, I’m off to the doctor this afternoon.

even though they may not be “online” in the same way most of us are.

Oh, I don’t think you are or anyone else is. However, I do tend to believe that we often overlook the power of the Internet as a tool at times.

Consider this, I’m sure Ms. Roberts would’ve been extremely gratified over the years if, instead of search engines routinely spitting out Janet Daily’s current works, they instead produced first and foremost a page (or even pages) listing the books that were proven plagarized from Ms. Roberts. Yes, I can hear the gasps now about beating dead horses but this information is also historical fact that somehow very few seem to know about. Such is already the power of search engines and yet oddly enough people have to search “extra” for it? Weird doesn’t cover that. Suspicious comes closer.

It is within the power of the reader community to start changing that while at the same time both educate ourselves and publicise the issue. Is this not what we are talking about here? Defining the problem? Showing support for the victims, past and future? Proving that we are advocates for changes in attitudes rather than letting them continue as they are?

Educating our fellow readers? Many of us are doing what we can. Writers are posting about it in their blogs, it's being discussed in forums, books under CE's name are still being combed over for plagiarized bits, and the pdf document updated as more evidence comes to light.

My question after that was in good faith, and I’m happy to see more suggestions being brought up.

Incidentally, I think that it would really be great to have a centralized document–or at least a repository of links, if you will–not just for the CE evidence but for other cases that have been mentioned during the past couple of weeks (Ms Robert and JD, Ms Andrews and Ian McEwan, Linda Howard and Christina Dodd, and any others that I’ve missed). I have also enjoyed greatly all the posts and essays on the issue of plagiarism vs research vs personal voice, etc. by many of the authors who have posted both here and at the SBs (you all know who you are), and have been keeping a list of links to them too. Another way to educate both readers and writers, I hope.

Sheryl Nantus,

if you don't know what plagarism is, what the heck are you doing writing? And then what ARE you writing, eh?

I have no doubt that the second question has popped up in many a reader’s mind, and that it has contributed to the nervousness some writers are feeling over the course of these conversations. I hope that the more accurate information (SB’s primer is excellent, as are Jane’s and Janet’s discussions on the topic) there is around for us to point at, the better.

Information is power – and alerting as many people as you can will help spread the word about this and allow people to make up their own minds.

Although I’m with you *points up* – if you don’t know what plagarism is, what the heck are you doing writing? And then what ARE you writing, eh?

But how do we reach the vast majority of CE readers out there, to make them see that they have been buying what essentially amounts to stolen property, and convince them to stop? How can we reach them if not through the press?

We reach them the same way we reach anyone searching for information on the web. We make the information available. The rest is up to them. If the information isn’t available, they can’t find it and that is what we can’t allow to happen.

Think about it. Yes, there are a lot of people that are not “online” in the same way we are but there are just as many that use the Internet as an information source when needed. My own sister is one of those. She does not spend a lot of time online but she does routinely look things up. If she was interested in an author, I’m sure she’d research that author. Don’t fall into the stereotyping trap of thinking that all romance readers aren’t computer uses just because they read romances now, ya hear. ;p

See where I’m going? Search engines are wonderful things. When I said that as a reader what I’d like to ultimately see was a complete listing of plagarized books by the authors who commented the offenses, I meant it. Quite literally. It might also be nice to make sure the publishers involved got mentioned somewhere in that listing, too. Just to see how many times they show up.

And, yeah, we do have to forgive if someone is truly repentent, which means that future books could be published by an author who has “paid” for the offenses. That’s always assuming, however, that they have repented and paid in some way. Personally, though, re-editing something that’s already been tainted just doesn’t do it for me as a reader. A clean start, a new work, yes. Reworking something already tainted? Not so much.

And second chances only go so far. Which is why keeping track and not forgetting is truly so important. Repentance only works if it’s real, you know. Trust but verify ring any bells?

Oh, and one other thing, there is a certain part of my brain that is really resistant to the very idea of having to define plagarism for people who make their living writing. It keeps telling me they should already know this information and if they don’t I should be doubly insulted as a longtime devoted reader of their work. Just thought I should mention that in passing.

If all you do is blast the offender on a blog, that's something. But don't just make nice and feel sorry for the plagiarizer who hasn't yet admitted any wrongdoing-and may never do so without hedging the admission with excuses.

Blasting doesn’t accomplish anything, Poison Ivy. Look… let me try to explain this way. Bear with on the nursing context…nursing is what I know.

I’m going to relate this a ethic/moral type issue as well, but I am NOT drawing parallels~ just trying to illuminate how insults or blasting tend to have little to no effect.

Going to use a nurse who is trying to educate parents with young teens and preteens on the dangers and repercussions of teen sex and how education, open discussion and honestly is required.

~*~

Nurse goes into the room, turns and faces the parents starts off with…

If you haven’t talked openly to your kids about sex, you’re probably damning them a life of poverty, a life riddled with health problems stemming from STDs, a life where they are stuck in a job with little higher education.

If you don’t talk openly to your kids about sex, you’re risking their health, their ability to have healthy children, ever their long term health.

If you aren’t talking openly to your kids about sex, you’re risking their lives. It isn’t just about babies or HIV. You can’t just say don’t have sex. It’s not good enough and if that’s all you do, you’ve failed.

Sounds rather harsh, yes? Is it wrong? Not necessarily. These are all valid points, taken to the extreme, but valid.

HOWEVER…many of these parents are either going to turn off their ears, or they are going to get so offended, they don’t hear what else she might have to say.

They don’t hear the important information about education, how kids don’t always think oral sex IS sex, and this ignorance can lead to kids catching diseases like herpes.

They don’t hear about the fact that open and honest, non-judgmental discussion with kids can give their kid a chance at a better, healthier life.

~*~
Trying it from an educational standpoint… same scenario, nurse going in to talk to parents on educating their kids.
~*~

nurse goes into classroom and starts handing each of the parents a picture of a pretty girl, roughly 12-13 years old. She then goes around and hands out a picture of the same girl, but her mouth is covered with ugly blisters and there are scars.

This girl’s parents talked to her about sex. They explained that sex is something that should wait until she’s older.

They explained that she needed to think about what was best for her and not to do anything just because her friends did, or because the boy she liked was pushing her to. They had their birds & bees talk, but they weren’t comfortable being open about sexuality and all its aspects.

When her boyfriend told her that oral sex isn’t really sex, she was too embarrassed to talk to her parents. When she tried, she got the same birds and bees talk, and ended up so embarrassed, she never asked the questions she had to ask.

So she engaged in oral sex…thinking it wasn’t really sex. But her boyfriend had herpes. And now she does, too.

~*~

Which group of parents is going to listen better?

Nobody cares for being lectured or blasted. Often, they turn their ears off or just nod along, thinking… man, this is a waste.

But people are willing to be educated. Education comes from objectivity. It doesn’t come from blasting. People can easily agree with blasts, but chances are, they did that anyway.

It’s not reaching those who haven’t made a decision or those who aren’t aware. And those are the ones we need to reach.

They key is in education and in open discussion, but if it’s not objective, it’s not going to have much effect.

I have no desire to make nice with CE but I can say I pity her. She made a bad decision, seriously bad, and I wonder how much of that stemmed from some sort of desperation or ignorance. Desperation and ignorance are definitely things I pity. They don’t excuse the acts, they don’t make it better. Acting out of desperation or ignorance is a sign of weakness. I can’t respect weakness. I can’t condone acting on it. But I can pity it.

Surely we can think of other actions to try, and there is value in repeated individual action. If just one person talks to a store manager (or a librarian or a publisher or an editor or a reporter), maybe nothing happens. If over a period of days, weeks, or months, many people speak to the manager, maybe something does.

As for the CE readers themselves, obviously many of us have decided that they are mere stupidheads, and thus appealing directly to them makes little sense. They don’t care. They want that hot Native American love and those postcoital lectures on ferrets. Removing the books from their ignorant grasp is the easy answer.

Look, try anything and everything. But don’t take the attitude that we are mere individuals and the great big nasty money-grubbing publishers will inevitably roll over us. It isn’t all that inevitable, as the OJ Simpson tell-all book showed.

If all you do is blast the offender on a blog, that’s something. But don’t just make nice and feel sorry for the plagiarizer who hasn’t yet admitted any wrongdoing–and may never do so without hedging the admission with excuses.

“If it is all about money then what can a reader truly do? It is these thoughts that feed boycott ideas because a reader feels helpless. She sees that the only thing that the publisher will respond to is economic pressure. How is economic pressure brought about?”

Yep, and that is the huge problem. If these publishers continue on their paths to rerelease these books, they are thumbing their noses at the whole issue, and basically, at a number of writers and readers who stand behind the fact that the CE thing is unethical if not illegal. And, drawing a line in the sand for people like Tolme. “Hey, tough s**t, whatcha gonna do about it? We have lots of lawyers, can you afford to fight us?”

Plus, with most of us being of an ethical nature, we know that boycotting the publisher will harm the innocent. Authors who have done nothing wrong except for selling one of their hard worked upon books to a house that now appears to have little value for writing in general, other than the bottom line.

Sigh. The trick is, trying to make it clear that the possible rewards of plagiarism can not, and should not be an acceptable exchange.

Now, don’t rip me for this thought here, but it’s like trying to explain to a hungry youth why laboring at fast food for a while is a better path than selling drugs.

Educating our fellow readers? Many of us are doing what we can. Writers are posting about it in their blogs, it’s being discussed in forums, books under CE’s name are still being combed over for plagiarized bits, and the pdf document updated as more evidence comes to light.

But how do we reach the vast majority of CE readers out there, to make them see that they have been buying what essentially amounts to stolen property, and convince them to stop? How can we reach them if not through the press?

At this point, I am far more disturbed with the publishers. I know that ultimately plagiarism is the responsibility of the author but at this point, how can any responsible publisher allow Edwards books to be republished without thorough vetting. I know that both Kensington and Dorchester plan to re-release several out of print Edwards titles this year. The most recent re-release, Falcon Moon, is being looked at right now and there are already three copied passages, one from poor Mr. Tolme again.

I don’t think the readership can afford to do a fundraiser for every wildlife animal which Tolme wrote about and Edwards copied. Each subsequent novel that is released at this point is a slap in our face as romance readers.

I know some are probably saying that we shouldn’t care because most of us aren’t Edwards readership in the first place, but it does harm us in the sense that it shows a lack of care on the part of Kensington for intellectual integrity. It seems to me that this publisher is more interested in making money no matter what so it will continue to put out books that are ostensibly authored by Edwards without regard for whether it infringes on another’s copyright. It degrades a readers implicit trust in a publisher and lend credence to any further complaints about publisher integrity.

If it is all about money then what can a reader truly do? It is these thoughts that feed boycott ideas because a reader feels helpless. She sees that the only thing that the publisher will respond to is economic pressure. How is economic pressure brought about?

If this continues without response and continued re-release, we can only hope that the press continues to follow this story and question the publisher, but I don’t see it happening because romance is not considered a genre of value and therefore of no mainstream literary interest. Would the press had hounded Frey if he was a romance author writing his memoirs? Doubtful.

It’s just all very depressing, imo.

Yes! Yes, yes, yes.

Most people are, at the core, willing to forgive, to give another chance to someone who stands up and says they did something wrong, they’re sorry, they’ll try to fix it–without smothering that with: but it wasn’t really my fault and here’s why.

A proven plagiarizer ought to be harried by the public, not just sued by the wronged writers. We should talk, talk, talk about the sins committed. We should use all the weapons at our command, including outright disdain and ridicule.

I don’t know if I can agree with your sentiment, Poison Ivy. I certainly agree that it isn’t fair that plagiarists often prosper more than than those they stole from.

However, I don’t agree that a person should pay indefinitely for a mistake that they are willing to admit they made. Admit it, apologize for it, make whatever amends can made, and I might be willing to give the person another chance. Especially in certain cases. The Harvard student last summer~she’s 19. Yes, that is old enough to know better. But it’s old also young enough to realize she messed up and never do it again. She would have to admit she made a mistake before I’d be willing to try anything she wrote, but if she admits it, then that tells me she might have learned something.

It’s different with the CE issue, in my mind, because she’s yet to come out and make an admission, offer an apology or reparations. As she’s an accomplished writer. If she can’t own up to her mistakes, I’d have a hard time believing it won’t happen again.

The JD case is another tricky one because while she admitted guilt, she excused it away. However, this doesn’t mean I don’t think she can’t learn from her mistakes. I won’t buy her regardless and yes, I did used to read her before the plagiarism deal. Not reading her isn’t my way of ‘punishing’ her~it’s just that I have no desire to pick up a book and try it out after she plagiarized. I’d imagine, though, she is aware she’s being scrutinized~people are scrutiny tend to be meticulous.

One thing I flat out disagree with is ridicule. That usually ends up veering into personally territory and when that happens, many people are either going to jump on and do the same without really thinking about why~ or they are going to stop listening to anything and everything that is said because of the personal attack. Personal attacks are not objective. Without objectivity, there is no way to rationally educate the public. All it does is make the ridiculer looks vindictive and it negates any true point they might have had. This is all my opinion of course, but once things turn to personal attacks, I stop listening.

It doesn’t mean I don’t focus on the plagiarism issue itself, but it does mean that I’ll ignore whatever logical points somebody might have had. If they can’t be stated without insults or ridicule, I have no desire to read them.

A key element of reparations should be to ensure that as part of the settlement, the offending passages are all removed or the particular book is withdrawn from publication entirely. But even having done that, the plagiarizer continues to benefit from the renown as an author that came to him or her from having stolen someone else’s work. That’s one reason why money damages are sought, I suppose, but how to quantify the lifelong career boost from a bestselling book? The offending author becomes entrenched as a successful public figure, and for whatever reason, simply retains the public’s goodwill anyway.

Janet Dailey, an admitted plagiarizer, did not make her career with her plagiarism. She un-made it. But she is still selling books, though not to me. And people prefer to forget what she did rather than confront it. I recently lobbied unsuccessfully for a review of one of them to be removed from a web site, on the grounds that her proven unethical behavior made her someone whose writing should not be promoted just to have content on a site. There are thousands of other books to review, after all. But the person in charge felt it was all right to keep the review up because that book had not been proved to contain plagiarized passages.

“Yet,” I thought.

A proven plagiarizer ought to be harried by the public, not just sued by the wronged writers. We should talk, talk, talk about the sins committed. We should use all the weapons at our command, including outright disdain and ridicule. We should complain to bookstores that continue to showcase Cassie Edwards’ books. We should not sit back and wait (often in vain) for organizations such as the RWA to issue tame reproofs, but press them to say something of substance. (I’ve sent that e-mail.) The legal system itself isn’t enough to effect the punishment that is deserved for plagiarism and thus to discourage more theft. Every time the author’s name comes up, “plagiarizer” should to be mentioned with it. Preferably, to the plagiarizer’s face.