If someone were applying a reasonable standard for judging plagiarism, this might be correct. But there are some people who consider a turn of phrase found in someone else’s work to fall afoul of ethical standards. If that is the standard, not only can you plagiarize accidentally, but most of us probably do. Part of the evolution of language involves absorbing Ideas and words of others into the common lexicon without attribution.

<<For that matter, what if public domain text was stolen? It’s still
<<plagiarism — do you contact her current publisher and hope they do
<>

No, it’s not. Public domain text is no longer the property of
anyone, thus cannot be “stolen,” ie, it’s not plagiarism in the legal
sense of the word.

It is bad form, though, especially for a novelist, who is, after
all, supposed to be creating something.

As for “stealing” story lines — my thought is, if it’s good enough
for Shakespeare, it’s probably good enough for the rest of us. Just
so long as the author does the real work, which is the actual telling
of the story. That’s where the real art is — in the choice of
words, the rhythm, the poetry. That’s why Shakespeare’s Romeo and
Juliet is what it is, and why all the hundreds of other versions are
what they are, both good and bad.

_______

Jane did make a good point in that I was confounding plagiarism and copyright infringement, however. Not very precise of me, considering I make my living with words. There is a good discussion of plagiarism in various contexts (academic, journalistic, Internet, etc.) at Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

Case in point, Harry Potter was the name of a character in an obscure fantasy movie called Troll before he was made by JK Rowlings, and the makers of that film haven’t gone after her even if the character share the same name in arguably the same genre. If the Tolkien company was really interested in protecting their copyright, they could have sued TOR, the makers of DnD, into the ground for using the concepts of Elven, Dwarven, Orc, and Halfing races. Because of that, those races are now ubiquitous in high fantasy.

Some authors though do sue the fans making these fanworks or at least scare them into taking stories down anything using their characters and world, (See: Anne Rice, Laurell K Hamilton) which only drives the fans back underground or into other fandoms. What no one has addressed so far, aside from the costs of taking legal action against fanworks, is the perception it then puts into the fandom against the author. LKH demanding Fanfiction.net to delete all the Anita Blake stories there not only soured my dwindling opinion of us, but probably everyone else that bothered to write in that fandom.

Also, none of the true fans ever contend that their work isn’t based off of someone else’s concept, since that is the very definition of fanfiction and transformative works in the first place. Most of them are happy not making a dime off their works, but just wish that their hobby, you know, be hobby without the general public going like everyone is here, and thinking, “OMG, isn’t that copyright infringement? plagiarism?”

On the flip side as well, every true fan I know is down right mean when it comes to ridding the community of plagiarists. One of my good friends has had one fic of hers in particular copy-pasted word for word twice by male fans and posted up, and the offending fics only got taken down by concerted efforts from other readers to report it and comment on the offense. These girls don’t pull their punches either and neither did I.

For what happened to Mm. Leto, I can only assume this happened before Web 2.0 and LJ groups like stop_plagiarism or on fanfiction.net. That site is notorious for being slow to remove anything unless legal papers are waved in front of them. It’s also one of the most hated even among fans for all it’s content restrictions and policy of looking the other way on somethings they claim to not allow as well as rampant amounts of under-aged fans posting ‘like OMG Best Fic Ever!!1!11!!1!’.

To me, plagiarism is the actual lifting of words and passing it off as your own, like Edwards has done, not writing a story based off of someone else’s story and taking it in directions the originator didn’t think about. Not all fanfics stick strictly to the original, or even to the characters or world. I once read what’s called an alternate universe story that set the cast of Sailor Moon, a popular girl’s anime, in a modern hospital romance. The only things similar were the character names, and a few in-jokes to the series. I saw an Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter fic once that took the idea of the world (real vampires living as legal citizens), recast it, set it in Philly, and all in an original adventure.

So, ok, I think I lost my point in here a little, but I think my point is that before you all damn all fan-writers as unoriginal, or as plagiarists and criminals at worst, at least consider a point at where the literal theft of words stops and the ephemeral theft of ideas begin, and which is more punishable when there’s profit involved and not involved?

Again, I apologize to any author who feels that I was blaming them for being silent. I still don't like the silence, but at least I understand some of it better now.

Robin, there are a lot of things that happen ‘behind the scenes’ so to speak that authors just don’t discuss in public. Every author probably has their own set of rules, but I’d say a lot of the ‘silence’ stems from an attempt to remain professional.

We’ve seen how many people have commented that Ce is being ‘attacked’ over this, when what most people have done is condemn the act. While in some cases, dismay and disappointment are certainly warranted ( and yes, I feel this is one of them) there have been other issues when one author said something negative, no matter how politely and diplomatically she was, things got ugly.

Too often, when authors criticize, it comes back on us as either issues of jealousy, issues of lack of professionalism, among others. I’ve seen authors lambasted just because they didn’t like a book somebody else did…even if their comments were a vague… it didn’t work for me

While the distinction in this case is clear, IMO, there are probably a lot of authors who’ve remained silent simply because it seemed the most professional approach.

I wouldn’t think any author would want to think about somebody using their work, but sometimes speaking out publicly on something, simply have an opinion, have can far reaching consequences for the author. There have been a number of times when I’ve remained silent, even when I had strong opinions, but when I weighed professionalism against the urge to speak, professionalism won out.

This wasn’t the case for me this time, but it might have been for others.

As with Dailye, the Edwards excuse just doesn’t fly. How can you possibly justify stealing another writer’s work? — In a drug filled haze or psychological breakdown my aching butt. Please. Copyrighted or not the material CE used was still not hers. And I expect that the black footed ferret stuff is still under copyright. How can professional authors (and publishers)not know the difference between copyright infringment and plagerism? Some of them are doubless covering themselves — but I’m hearing stuff from writers that sends cold chills down my spine. It’s all right to copy works in the public domain — please. I wonder what CE or JD would say if someone stole their scenes/chapters? There are a lot of catty things I could say right now to expand that last sentence of mine, but I’ll refrain.

And I have to admit I am dumbfounded to see that Dailey is still being published.

This is the first time I've come back to this thread, and sometimes I wonder why I just don't let Shiloh say everything and just nod :-)

Because as cute as you are, you don’t wanna be a bobblehead?

;)

But I'd also like to point out that I see this post as outrage on behalf of authors in general, those who don't try to pass off works as their own. It's an attempt to help.

Did some of the comments I read rub me the wrong way? Yeah, some. I don't feel that silence equates approval and it grated some thinking that unless I make some public service announcement, it means I don't have a problem with.

However, as I've already said, I get the general impression that Jane (and others) is outraged on behalf of authors, outraged over something that's obviously wrong and there seems to be little to no consequence.

This is the first time I’ve come back to this thread, and sometimes I wonder why I just don’t let Shiloh say everything and just nod :-) I know that a PSA wasn’t what was being asked for, nor do I think bloggers should be quiet or that this is being discussed too much. My frustration stemmed from a tone I perceived in the comments — which, in turn, was probably a tone that stemmed from the commentors’ own frustration (plural, by the way — which I very obviously conflated).

Robin:

I would never expect an author to put their own work to the test on a public blog, Meljean, but I disagree with you about the value of general discussion. And I think there are enough famous cases out there that could serve as illustrative examples.

Oh, I don’t argue with that at all — that general discussion is valuable and that famous cases can be illustrative. I was just approaching it from a very individual, specific way. What I’m saying is that when an author is faced with a situation where he/she must decide whether the use is problematic, the general discussion won’t give them an answer. What it does is let the author know that there’s a question in the first place (which is good). But when you get into the nuances and practical application, when it’s not an issue of Plagiarism = Bad and it’s not about lifting from sources, but genuine confusion, those examples (and the discussion around them, which probably has an argument between the participants) can increase the confusion … hence the author going to other (more knowledgeable) people to ask.

I’m not saying, in any way, that those general discussions — even if they only further confuse the issue for an author — are wrong or worthless. In fact, they’re necessary, because there should be awareness that there are more nuances to plagiarism than “word for word = bad” and the difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement. But when nuances come into play, I do think the discussion takes place at a higher level than most authors can participate in, in any meaningful or constructive way (for the most part, we can just talk about our gut instincts: the horror of being plagiarized and someone stealing our work, the anger and frustration.) But very often, those additions are simply, “it pisses me off” and its variants.

And even when the discussion centers on a concrete example, the language and wide-ranging knowledge to discuss it in-depth simply aren’t there. Like, I’ve seen you write amazing posts that discuss issues of IR and copyright, which bring in examples from cases and discussions, and I’ll follow along, trying to get as much out of it as I can — but my response wouldn’t be much more than a “I agree with that” or “That seems wrong” And (I’m really only talking for myself, but I do have the (maybe naive) hope that most authors have a layman understanding of copyright and plagiarism) I wouldn’t feel at all qualified to bring that back to my blog and discuss it, because a) without the right language and background, I might flub it and b) because if I’ve seen it somewhere else, the most I might do is link the original discussion (but even then I might not, because I just assume that everyone who reads my blog probably reads the blogs that you’re commenting on).

And because I’ve seen, over and over again, when a person who is not well versed in law or IP theory gives their interpretation, there are going to be errors (which someone more knowledgeable will usually correct, which is great — but the fear then, is, how many people saw the incorrect information, and how many saw the correction? On a blog post, that’s probably going to be a scary ratio). So there is the fear of spreading incorrect information (which maybe any author who says that copying out-of-copyright material isn’t plagiarism should have considered.) But there is also a real sense of gratitude when someone who is well-versed in the topic talks about it and tries to put it in layman terms (as I’ve seen on many of Jane’s legal-oriented posts). And authors, for the most part, are laymen when it comes to these topics.

I’m not trying to be apologetic or make excuses for why the discussion isn’t taking place in a wide-spread, everyday way — but I see your frustration, and the “why not” being asked, and this is the answer (for me, anyway).

And not that we really do think on a level that’s as simple as plagiarism = unethical, but for many of us, that’s all we bring to the discussion table. Fanfic may be fought about and the shades of grey darkened and paled forever in legal terms, but most authors can’t take part in the discussion beyond quoting pieces of copyright law and the Fair Use Act in whatever way that supports their position on fanfic. Because that’s what it comes down to for those authors: the gut decision of whether its ethical or unethical, and then they find legal language that supports them. Fanfic = bad or fanfic = good. (Same with selling ARCs, I think. Discussion is more prevalent with those two topics, not just because ARCs are always on e-Bay, and it’s not often that we see someone plagiarizing, but because there IS another side to argue against. Plagiarism = bad is a given (to most of us.)) And it’s STILL confusing, because half of them are quoting the same passage out of Fair Use, but just interpreting it differently.

So when authors need advice on a specific piece of information, the general discussion doesn’t always help us make a decision about practical application — and that’s really what I was getting at in my comment above about general discussion. I do think it’s valuable, especially as a tool of education.

And helpless frustration? That’s where that comes in, too. (Again, speaking only for myself) I think that people have to be proactive in their education, driven by curiosity, a willingness to learn, and if you set information in front of someone who didn’t care before they learned it, they’re probably not going to think it’s a big deal afterwards. If you're an aspiring writer intending to publish, and you don't know that you can't lift, or you can't just rewrite a Robb story and sell it, there's something terribly skewed in the way they've educated themselves about creative writing and ownership of that. And although some writers, when it's pointed out, might have that light bulb go off (because they'll approach it with a willingness to be educated, or to consider ethics) I suspect that many others would just shrug or point the finger back the other way. I mean, the last flareup about plagiarism … that was from someone who STILL doesn't understand what was wrong, and her part in it. And there may have been other factors involved (such as a capacity to understand it) but her “agent” didn't understand it, either, although it was pointed out again and again why it was wrong. So, again, I'm back to “if they don't care now, they won't care afterward”. That’s maybe the cynic in me, I don’t know.

But — to get back to the point of discussion as a tool of education — I also don’t feel comfortable or qualified as an educator. I imagine many authors do not — and not just on their blogs, but at their RWA chapters — to do more than say, “These are the basics of plagiarism, and plagiarism = bad.” (Or on their blogs, plagiarism = bad and a link … and a PSA is an overstatement, of course, but that’s what it feels like, because there won’t be any discussion in the comments beyond, ‘thanks’ and ‘I agree it’s bad.’ And if there is more discussion than that, hopefully one of those experts will show up.) The statement itself is valuable, but again — there’s the frustration of knowing it’s really not going very far, and preaching to a choir, or to people who will just shrug and move on.

For authors to have a real discussion, it might be better to bring in someone from outside who knows the language and can catch anyone slipping into misunderstandings (instead of having those misunderstandings reinforced). And I would be honestly surprised if, in a couple of months, that isn’t exactly what RWA chapters are doing: having a discussion, trying to educate. And I’d be surprised if people aren’t writing articles for RWR, or asking that it be addressed. (I have, btw, sent that in as a suggestion. I’m just not qualified to write it.)

As for silences on the Avon (or similar) boards and blogs — the problem I see there is actually the culture of “don’t say anything bad”. And because it is difficult to talk about plagiarism in purely general ways. Even if it starts out general, never naming anyone but, say, bringing up the question of Fair Use and research, asking the question of “if an author does this, is it wrong?” — some mod is going to swoop in an say, “we don’t talk about bad things here” (especially if there’s a lot of disagreement). And even if the discussion got that far, eventually it would turn to consequences — and even if names were never mentioned, even if no one said, “You couldn’t pay me to read a J. Dailey book now,” but just talked in terms of punishment (like boycotting an author or writing letters), that mod will swoop in. I don’t agree with that policy of all things happy-smile, but I guess they have a right to enforce it — and that’s also why I spend more time on forums like this than that.

Part of me just needs time to adjust to the idea that something I thought was baseline obvious -’ that much non-fiction research is itself original, creative work and as susceptible to plagiarism as original fiction -’ isn't maybe so baseline obvious (I mean, check out that Diana Gabaldon comment).

Heh. I’m adjusting to this, too. That, and trying to wrap my head around Signet’s response. And why anyone vilifies someone for exposing a plagiarist, or why anyone blames the victim. I see it, but I’m just left with “whuh?” Some things are just beyond my comprehension, I think.

Is there a legal sense of the word plagiarism?

Although plagiarism is rarely illegal, there is most definitely a legal defintion. Simply put, plagiarism is the act of using another person’s written ideas or concepts in your own work without acknowledging the source. Any legal dictionary will have include a basic defintion along those lines.

Plagiarism can be the legal basis for a copyright infringement case, but not all copyright infringement involves plagiarism, and not all plagiarism infringes copyright. People who confuse the two are either ignorant, or in the case of the Signet, desperately scrambling for arguments to excuse their author’s shoddy conduct.

I think the question then becomes, for authors, how much padding is too much? Does it have to be 40 instances like the Opal Mehta story? Can it be 16 instances? What constitutes an instance? Is the ethical matter going to come down to what is “legal” v. “not legal” i.e., if it is not copyright infringement, it is not an ethical violation?

I would think the question for authors would be, how can I write a decent book without having to use ‘padding’ from other people’s work? Lifting a passage from someone else’s work is plagiarism regardless of how many times an author does it. As Angela James mentioned, there will be some overly sensitive authors out there, but it’s rare for someone to allege plagiarism on just the basis of plot or character similarities.

What Cassie Edwards has done is wrong, but probably legal. No doubt she will continue to unleash a torrent of truly awful books interspliced with pilfered encyclopeida-like text.

Are they any more neutral about anything than those criticizing them?

that should be ‘are they any LESS neutral. . .’

I think, anyway. My brain seems to have gone.

*sigh*

god that Signet statement depressed me.

It's an industry problem. A big, fat one.

I know you’re right about this. But right now, my disappointment and frustration are very localized, because right now it’s the Romance community that’s dealing with this. That’s not to say that any other part of the industry is exempted from the same issues and problems, only that right now some of what I’m reading as I travel around the net is making that localized discomfort acute. And it’s so weird to me that Romance folks talk about how terrible it is to be disrespected, but I’ve read multiple times something akin to “well, it’s only research, of course you can use it like that in fiction — why the big deal?”

Authors have said that comments in this thread have hit them wrong, and I feel the same way, too. And part of my frustration is a sense of helplessness. I don’t feel comfortable boycotting authors who write for Signet or Dorchester, I already don’t read Cassie Edwards, and so the traditional “vote with your wallet” logic doesn’t work for me here, either. I’m not even so wound up about Cassie Edwards; to me, this example is merely emblematic of, as you say, a big, fat bundle of issues. In a couple of days, when my funk starts to pass, I’ll write a reasonable, logical letter to Penguin. I’m a little bit cheered that the AP picked up on this story and actually did some background research in its report. And I don’t believe that authors are routinely plagiarizing secondary sources for their books. Part of me just needs time to adjust to the idea that something I thought was baseline obvious — that much non-fiction research is itself original, creative work and as susceptible to plagiarism as original fiction — isn’t maybe so baseline obvious (I mean, check out that Diana Gabaldon comment). And what, if anything, does that mean for the subgenre I love to read?

I’m also sort of sadly amused at the idea that questioning the SBs motives in posting what they did is for some folks a legitimate contravening factor in judging the veracity and integrity of what they posted, when to me what they posted is raw data. Are they any more neutral about anything than those criticizing them?

And once the Edwards flap is over, is this issue just going to go back into the corner to hide among the dust motes?

Sure, it’s an industry-wide problem, but I’m feeling the effects locally right now, and I’m tired of trying to figure out the most reasoned way to respond when my head feels like it’s going to explode. I’ll get over it, but right now I’m feeling especially cranky, lol.

Let me, again, make this personal. When I was facing the Dailey business, my publisher, my agent–both smart woman who cared about me, and are extremely principled–advised me I might want to keep it quiet. Handle it on the lowdown.

Because, and this is pretty much a direct quote as I remember it: “It will be–Yes, I’m guilty, but I’m not responsible. I had problems. Feel sorry for me.” And I was warned I would take a great deal of heat, a lot of criticism while the plagiarist evoked considerable sympathy and pity. The question was, did I want to face that?

In the end, the answer was yes, I did. In the end, they were exactly right. Very often in these cases, the victim is fried and the offender given head pats. The ones who expose the offense are slapped back as mean or vindictive. And the issue itself is lost.

Copying work not your own and calling it your own is wrong. Period, end of story. And those who do so diminish the rest of us.

When you pillory authors for not speaking out against plagiarism,

I feel the need to point out, I can’t really say I feel pilloried over this. What I’m picking up is frustration on the sides of readers and authors.

I see frustration a perceived lack of ‘silence’~I say perceived because I do feel it’s something writers discuss among themselves, in crit groups, writing chapters, etc, places where readers really don’t see them.

I get the desire to educate readers and, as I said before, while it’s a lovely idea, I still believe there are readers who won’t care and readers who are totally unaware of such things, and probably happy to remain that way. We can’t change that.

But I’d also like to point out that I see this post as outrage on behalf of authors in general, those who don’t try to pass off works as their own. It’s an attempt to help.

Did some of the comments I read rub me the wrong way? Yeah, some. I don’t feel that silence equates approval and it grated some thinking that unless I make some public service announcement, it means I don’t have a problem with.

However, as I’ve already said, I get the general impression that Jane (and others) is outraged on behalf of authors, outraged over something that’s obviously wrong and there seems to be little to no consequence.

Shiloh, my understanding is the same as DS's (with the inclusion of short statements).

Okay, so here’s another question… man, I’m asking a lot of these today. Earlier I emailed a lady who’s in my local RWA chapter, a lawyer, and asked her if there were set standards on how long a body had to be missing before a person could be declared legally dead. Research, honest!

Anyway, question is this…

A few years ago, I was in a store and saw a magnet, it read,
You. Me. Whipped Cream. Handcuffs. Any questions?

The minute I read that magnet, an idea for a book, pretty much fully formed, title and all, leaped into my head~ titled Whipped Cream and Handcuffs. Went home, thinking about the idea. Checked online to see if that was a quote from a movie or something and couldn’t find any direct source. I don’t recall what did come up from the search and now I wonder if that is something I should document somewhere.

However, I didn’t reference where I’d seen the magnet and I used one reading the same thing in my book.

I vaguely remember asking if I needed to include seeing the phrase on a magnet, although I don’t recall the exact answer. I’d assume ‘no’ since it is got published without any thing.

Now, since I basically got the idea from a magnet and used an identical magnet in the story, where does this place me? Hopefully not some place I shouldn’t be.